Help: Does “I don’t know if I love you” actually mean “I don’t love you"? (longish)

In My Humble Opinion
1

I could really use some advice, words of wisdom, or just a few “hang in there’s”. I’m a long time lurker who feels like I know many of you and have seen a few marriage advise threads recently.

Hubby and I both recently, as in within the last month, turned 40. We will have been married 16 years this September. I tend not to get angry, or if I do, I’m over it fairly quickly. Hubby and are don’t argue. (By argue I mean voices-raised discussions.) Sure, we have little disagreements but they never last more than an hour or two. We both grew up in an atmosphere similar to our own.

I would describe myself as non-confrontational and easily wounded (sharp tone of voice will hurt my feelings, for example). I would describe hubby as a silent-treatment type, also easily wounded but not in the same way as I am.

More about me: I have no libido. I don’t get horny and could go without sex for quite some time. It just doesn’t occur to me. Medically, nothing is wrong (I had it checked), don’t suffer from depression, am not repulsed by sex, and don’t hate it. There are no secrets of abuse in my past.

Hubby wants sex it 7 days a week. Now, I may not always seem to be giving “my all”, but I by no means just lie there. He will say “you never initiate sex” and in the very next breath utter “I do realize we’re just different”. He’s also one for copping a feel at every opportunity – squeeze a boob, grab my ass, hands down my pants, un-do my bra, (you get the picture), ALL THE TIME. To me is seems every time he gets close to me a grab of some kind takes place.

One morning while getting ready for work (just over a week ago) I blurt out “all I am to you is tits and ass” as he grabs my ass. Realizing that this was a poor choice of words, I tried, very badly, to say it clearer. This only made it worse as I continued to have trouble coming up with the right words. I did really try to make my feelings understood and I actually thought he “kinda” understood. I didn’t want him to stop, just tone it down a notch or two. We had sex that evening.

Everything is fine for a couple of days.

On about the third day I realize I’m getting the silent-treatment. This is where my non-confrontational nature kicks in: I don’t talk to him either. You know, the old “if your not talking to me I’m not talking to you “ routine. (Did I mention, we’re 40?) I have NO idea why he’s pissed. Not a clue. Can’t for the life of me figure out what I’ve done.

Finally this Saturday I get the nerve up to ask what it is that ticked him off so much. Well wouldn’t you know it, its the “tits and ass” comment I’d made a week ago. It seems that all of a sudden I don’t want him to touch me AT ALL.

We have it out that evening. Voices raised for a part of the time but usually in normal tones. I get a listing of my flaws (I’ve heard the items on this list a few times over the years), I’m not this, I’m not that, things I don’t do, et al. A the top of the list, and always the most important, is my lack of interest in sex.

I ask him if he loves me and he says “I don’t know”. The next morning (yesterday), I ask “now what”. He replies that he doesn’t know. I remind him of the conclusions that can be drawn from the previous evenings “discussions”:

  1. I’m not the person he wants me to be.
  2. He doesn’t love me. (He reminds me that he said “HE DOESN’T KNOW”.) He adds that he’ll never touch me again. (Ouch, that one hurt.)

We then went on to discuss the division of the belongings, custody of the two dogs (we have no kids), who’ll move out., etc. Wasn’t a long talk, nor did it really get ironed out into a plan. We agree that we can be friends. Which we both really believe.

So by afternoon we’d settled into a kind of truce mode and were once again talking. Avoiding “the issue”. He says such things as how we should get the windows caulked before fall. What the hell am I supposed to think? Didn’t we just split up, or at the very least are in the process of doing that?

When someone says “I don’t know if I love you”, does it really mean “I don’t love you”? Wouldn’t you know it if you did and say I don’t know when you don’t and want to spare feelings?

Whew, I must say it felt really good to talk about it. Sorry for the ramble.

TTFN, and thanks for listening.
Lynn

2

Mainly wanted to bumb this so the wise among us can get a good solid crack at is…

Truth be told, I used this one on a girlfriend recently. And what I meant was “I don’t think I know you”… but this was a fairly short-term relationship (couple-three months) and I had discovered that she had “tested” me on some things… basically said things and did things strictly to see how I would react… there was enough of this, and about big enough things, that I no longer knew what was real and what was a test… I don’t play that.
Sounds like it might just be hurt feelings in your case, though…

3

I hate to pry, but how would you describe your relationship before this happened? After sixteen years of matrimony, the whole “I don’t know…” thing shouldn’t be coming up simply in the hurt feelings sense.

I just don’t want to sound off without a better idea of what has been going on.

Of course, it could just be a midlife crisis.

4

I’m reading this more as a “I don’t know if I love you enough to go without sex” rather than a “I don’t know if I love you” thing.

IANATherapist. Just MHO.

5

I don’t know much about this sort of thing, but it sounds like he probably feels very rejected on a personal level by your lack of interest in sex.

It also sounds to me like you two have gone years without discussing your real feelings about major issues in your relationship because you’re both pretty avoidant of conflict and hence emotionally-charged discussions.

Would both of you be willing to have a go at marital counseling? Sounds to me like some of this might be worked out by learning how to communicate with each other better (and probably also by seeing if there’s any way to work out the disparity in your sex drives).

I don’t think “I don’t know” always means “I don’t love you.” Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t. I don’t know your husband well enough to guess.

6

With the midlife crisis stage, the sexual argument and make up sex, then the accusational fight, that moment was not the most stable to be making statements such as that. He sounds resentful and frustrated to me. Things like that (huge libido gap) can fester under the surface, it sure did with me. I may have been guilty of some of the same pawing at one time, as an “I’ll try anything” approach to intimacy. Your silent treatment battle lines are a huge hinderance to the communication needed to either get through this together or get past it seperately. I’d recommend sitting down quietly and calmly and starting from the beginning. “Do we want to stay married?” A decent Marriage Counselor handles this type of thing every day, and can probably give you better insight than we can.

7

When I imagine myself in a 16-year marriage where my wife never actually wants to have sex with me, sexually placating me but never actually making love to me, I can understand the idea of a fate worse than death. Then after sticking it out in spite of a decade and a half of being made to feel that I’m a sexual non-entity, that all my time and energy and committment doesn’t mean anything either, well, I wouldn’t be so sure about loving her either.

8

IMO, having a husband that does nothing but grope you every time you get close to him would be a definite libido buster for me. Don’t get me wrong - a bit of friendly groping between consenting adults is a great thing - but from what MLAW describes it’s every time they get close! That kind of behavior would make me avoid my husband at all costs, no matter how much I liked/wanted sex. Sorta like chocolate - sure, I like chocolate, but if someone jammed a Godiva down my throat every time I opened my mouth I’d get sick of it real fast.

9

Athena: I’m reminded of the scene from Annie Hall where Woody Allen’s and Diane Keaton’s characters are each in their own therapists’ office in split screen. The shrink asks each of them how often they make love, and Diane Keaton says “Constantly. At least three times a week.” Allen’s answer is “Almost never. Not more than three times a week.”

Perspective.

10

I am also reminded of a comedienne I saw a while back who stated that the phrase “I think we should see other people”, means, “I already am”.

11

I’ll add a vote for some marriage counselling. Hopefully something besides apathy and silent treatments have kept you together 16 years especially since you want to stay friends.

From what I’ve read here it seems the lack of effective communication is one of the biggest problems.

She’s not able to truly articulate that she doesn’t mind him touching her but the amount and the extreme sexual nature of all the touching is overwhelming and pressures her to feel sexual thereby making it impossible for her to feel sexual.

He on the other hand has never learned to communicate his need for sex beyond the adolescent groping stage. There are better ways to ask for sex without words… candles, flowers, do the dishes, give a sensual massage (not a drive by groping) …

You don’t talk about the rest of your relationship but I will bet the same kind of problems exist everywhere but the sex is the part that bothers hubby and therefore you with all the groping the most.

I also think the I don’t know if I love you part means I don’t know if I love you enough to live this way forever.

12

Yep.

13

First, I want to say Thanks for all the replies. Sorry for getting back here till now. Work is nuts and I try to limit my visits to SDMB (I don’t internet from home).

Harborwolf I can honestly say that our relationship, up to now, has been good. A few bumps in the road along the way but we’ve never divided up the belongings before. We work at the same place and tend to see each other frequently during the day. We have always been good friends and, oddly enough, talking is not hard for us. Communicating yes, but talking is not. Does that make sense?

Q.N. Jones Your 100% correct when you say we’ve gone years without the type of communication we’ve needed and should have had.

Athena Exactly. That’s what I was trying to say when I blurted out the “tits and ass” barb.

js_africanus You are right. Though I will say in my defense the sex hasn’t always been this way between us. Its only been in the last 3-4 years.

** tanookie** We thought about marriage counseling, but both don’t put much faith in it. Don’t feel paying someone $100 plus per hour to just listen over several weeks / months could help. Yes, I’ll admit my ignorance on the role a marriage counselor would provide. Not closing the door on this but not quite at the point of going through it.

UncleBill Ah, the midlife crisis. It did occur to us that we’re having a harder time with the 40 “thing” than either one of us was prepared for. Your recommendation for sitting down and discussing it calmly was dead on.

And we did just that. I’d typed up this thread at work and headed home. Having written it all out helped me look at things from a different perspective. I had to stop thinking of myself as the wronged one and to see it from his side too.

We spent most of last night talking. Calmly and quietly - holding nothing back, or at least trying very hard not to. The honest truth about our feelings, what we have in common, our differences, what is good and what is bad.

Yes, he was feeling rejected. Has been for quite some time and the festering had reached a boiling point. My lack of libido is a lousy excuse for avoiding sex. As a husband, and a man, he shouldn’t be expected to live in a marriage that feels more like friends than husband and wife. I promised to try, which I meant sincerely. He said that’s all he wanted and can accept that seven days a week is not going to happen :slight_smile: We realize that it will take time, people don’t change overnight, and have promised each other to talk, really talk, along the way. He admitted to still being a little foggy on the “tits and ass” comment (as we’re calling it now) but is willing to take it down a notch.

OK, I really should get some work done today. Thanks again, your words were a great comfort. The common message of good communication and willingness to work at something important comes through.

TTFN
Lynn

14

Good luck & best wishes!

15

Talking is a very good thing. I’m glad you’ve started down that path.

Sex is a highly charged item in marriage. No one should be forced to have sex when they don’t want it but there is a certain expectation of sex from within a marriage and when one person wants it and can’t get it a lot of resentment can form. I hope you reach a compromise that meets both of your needs emotionally and physically. Good luck to you.

Having worked in a mental health office I know most insurance companies offer a certain number of visits as part of their coverage. You may want to look into that. Also since no insurance company I know of pays the fee the therapists charge many are willing to accept cash payments of what they would have gotten had you had insurance if you ask them nicely.

As for their role in helping you. That depends on you. Some people need someone external to the relationship to mediate and to cut through the defence mechanisms when they pop up on automatic pilot. I’ve never had marriage counseling but I’ve seen it do wonderful things for some people.

16

$100 an hour for a marriage counselor?

There are lots of counselors who see people on a sliding scale. They’ll charge up to, say, oh, $50 a session, but they’ll look at your income and lower it if needed.

Any money you spend on a marriage counselor would be a lot less than a divorce lawyer. Sixteen years is a long time to go down the tubes if it can be avoided.

I cannot recommend this book enough: “His Needs, Her Needs” by Willard Harley Jr. Every engaged couple should have to read this book before they get married. It’s a good look into the mind of a woman (if you’re a man) and it really opened my eyes about what goes through my husband’s brain.

17

You forget, MLAW is Canadian. $100 Canadian is like $3.75 US.

18

This is a tough situation. I can sympathize with your husband feeling rejected. However, the constant groping and grabbing is a terrible way to deal with those feelings. I’ve never met a woman who would find that to be anything other than a major turn-off. Also, trying to forceably extract physical affection from his wife can’t be good for his self-esteem either.

I’m really glad you’re both talking this out. I would strongly recommend looking into marriage counselling. It sounds like you both have problems with communication and confrontation, so a counsellor could be very valuable in getting to the heart of the matter without it turning into a battle. A good one won’t just listen – they’ll guide and ask questions and help you both articulate things in a way you may not be able to on your own.

Good luck.

19

MLAW, hang in there. You may very well have to have a few talks about the “T&A” issue. DogDad and I had to iron this same kind of thing out early in our marriage. He really honestly thought he was being complimentary by showing his love and attraction for me in that manner. It’s tough, sometimes, for people to understand an issue from “the other side” - in this case, it’s probably tough for him to see that it’s probably turning you off even MORE.
I was finally able to explain it to DogDad in a way he could understand - that by doing all those things, it made me feel pressured to “perform”, and was driving me even further away from any DESIRE to “perform”. However, if he’d just back off a bit, he’d probably notice me having more desire to have sex, but also to make those “loving gestures” (so to speak) back at him.
(Though if this would NOT be the case for you, don’t offer it as an option, of course.)
It also took several reminders of the “back off, please, it’s a bit too much again.” before he started backing off on his own.

Good on you for seeing that it’s NOT “just him”, by the way. That’s one of the most difficult things to do.
keep with it - and good luck.

20

Wow - everyone is so great for sharing your experiences with me. I find it a great comfort to know hubby and I are not the odd couple out, and the only couple bouncing along down the bumpy road of matrimoney.

DobMom Exactly - that’s it exactly. Can I quote you word for word? (j/k) We did talk a bit more about the “T&A” issue (and a lot of other stuff) last night. Mr. Mlaw also believed he was showing love and attraction with his actions. He did say he can kinda see my point and will make an effort to tone it down. I just want to be able to walk up to him and give him a hug without getting stripped.