Help: family advice needed

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

This is about my brother (I’ll call him Stephen).

Stephen feels in his heart that he’s destined to become an entrepreneur. He’s chased this dream for the past decade. Now he’s 36, beyond broke (he can’t deposit what little money he earns into a bank out of fear it’ll be diverted to creditors), and alone (his only social contacts are my younger brother and parents on weekends). Nevertheless, despite what those of us that care for him plainly see, Stephen adamantly refuses to budge a microstep from his present course.

This afternoon, my parents called to tell me that Stephen doesn’t have money for this month’s rent, nor for food. Stephen told them he’s waiting for an inexplicably delayed payment from his employer. Similar crises occur once or twice a year. As with previous instances, my folks gave their support (not rent this time, but some fresh fruit and groceries to tide him over), but not without a pang in their hearts that perhaps this is not the best way to help Stephen.

Stephen currently works selling health insurance (other jobs in the past ten years included a pyramid sales operation-lost his shirt, a Taiwanese import venture-got screwed by his partner, and a business to business marketing position-company went belly-up). He’s been with the same firm for nearly two years. His entire salary is based on commission and he receives no benefits. This situation provides the utmost in freedom and self-guidance; since he’s no drain on the company’s finances, his productivity is immaterial from the perspective of his superiors. In addition, given that income is fixed as a percentage of sales, his earning potential is theoretically unlimited. These qualities, freedom and unlimited potential, leave him giddy with prospects.

Stephen tells me he’s cut from a different cloth. Incapable of being another working stiff, under the stern yoke of bungling managers, Stephen asserts his personal manifest destiny of ascension to lofty executive heights. Someday, a million bucks will be his pocket change.

When I telephoned my brother-in-crisis yesterday, he was watching the Women’s finals at the US Open. I wondered how genuine could his entrepreneurial gumption be if at this critical time (no money for rent or food) he’d be idling the day away. I posed this question directly and he informed me that this is exactly the course any executive type would take given these circumstances.

Stephen comes from a background not of privilege but not of want either. We grew up on the North Shore of Long Island as the imperfect offspring of imperfect parents, but with far from a dysfunctional family. In his late teens and early twenties, Stephen was the paragon of fiscal restraint. He worked throughout college. Admirably, Stephen paid his entire tuition from savings and wages (in contrast, I took a free ride on the Mommy and Daddy express). He attained a degree in chemistry and worked for 2-3 years as a middle manager in a blood-testing facility. He hated this job; he was shat on from above and below. Notwithstanding, pay was good and he worked a 40 hours week. This job ended abruptly as his division was phased out. From there, he embarked on his decade-long career folly.

Each time he stumbled, my family enjoined him to consider another path: Teach, scrub floors, stock shelves, what about P.A. school, be a paramedic. Every suggestion met with his fierce opposition and our acquiescence. Honestly, I was proud of him at those times. He was willing to forgo comfort and security in the pursuit of his dreams. Ten year later, though, dreams are all he has to show for these efforts.

Stephen refuses all of our advice. “We don’t understand him,” “We’re not business folk like him,” “He could NEVER work a regular job.” He maintains that given our career trajectories, nobody in my family is in a position to advise him. However, that flies in the face of reason. My Mom is a retired teacher who worked her entire adult life. My Dad is a retired upper manager in the computer field. My younger brother is a successful software engineer. I am an MD/PhD dermatology resident. Yet, not one of us has enough insight to give him direction.

We are near wits end. Whispers of Tough Love are in the wind. Stephen has neither a substance dependence nor overt mental illness. What can we do to help him transition to lifestyle with higher lows and lower highs and generally more stability?

2

I feel for you, choosybeggar, but I don’t think there’s anything you can do; your brother is gonna have to pull himself out of this one. It seems to me that you and other members of your family are providing Steven with a safety net so that he hasn’t had to face the harsh reality of his situation. I think that all of you are going to have to step back and let events happen. Steven will have to deal with possible eviction, poor credit, etc. Maybe the shock will serve to goad him to make changes in his long term goals.

Also, is everyone in the family in agreement with your assessment of the situation? Would it be feasible to stage an intervention where everyone in the family confronts Steven and points out what is really happening? Steven may be so wrapped up in himself that he disregards your words; if everyone else in the family supports you, he’ll have no choice but to listen. I know it’s hard to not jump in with monetary support, but Steven has to dig himself out of his hole and get a job so he can get current with his responsibilities and scale back on his big plans for the future. HTH

3

So basically, he thinks he’s too good to work for a living? Tough love sounds good to me. As long as your family keeps supporting this delusion of his, he’ll never get it. He needs to get a real job and a real life.

4

Yes, we’re all on the same page. The confrontation is in the works.

It hurts, though, alot. Anyone with confrontation success stories they want to share?

5

I have watched both my brothers struggle to support themselves for several years.

I feel for you, I know it’s not easy to watch, especially when you can see a better path for their lives.

You’ve probably realized by now, good advice only falls on deaf ears. And that he has to learn his own lessons, even the really harsh ones.

This is what helped me to get through it.

‘You cannot help someone by doing for them what they should or could do for themselves.’

For about six months one year I had to tell myself this every day. And after hearing it enough times, it sort of helped.

My brothers are not substantially any different, but I am! :smiley:

6

Has this guy ever been to a shrink? Most of us had big dreams once, but at some point we realized that we weren’t going to be brain surgeons/NFL quarterbacks/astronauts/“masters of the universe”–or, at least, we discovered that achieving an exalted goal requires paying a lot of dues. If this guy really thinks it’s all going to drop into his lap, or he thinks the jackpot is just around the corner, he may not have enough connection to reality to understand what’s happening, or to know what to do about it. Letting him get dumped on the street won’t solve that problem.

How well does he do at his commission-only job? Is he knowledgable about his products? How does he relate to potential customers? Has he got whatever licenses he’s supposed to have? Is he out of money because he’s not making any money, or is he squandering what money he gets on bad investments? If his judgment is impaired just telling him to shape up won’t do the trick.

I noted this:

It wouldn’t be right to say the family owes your brother anything. At the same time, it sounds like your parents spent a lot of money on the education of two of their sons while your brother paid his own way. In fairness, maybe it’s his turn to get something. If the family can afford it, it wouldn’t be so terrible to put your brother on some kind of minimum stipend for awhile to keep him off the streets, maybe with appropriate conditions: seeing a shrink, holding a regular job, etc. Maybe you could pay his rent directly, so he’d never touch the money. Maybe you could call it a loan, and if he ever gets straightened out he pays you back. It just sounds like he took a wrong turn ten years ago, and it’s going to take a while to get on track. It’s a safe bet that he doesn’t need you to tell him that things haven’t worked out, but he probably doesn’t have much of an idea of where to go from here.

7

Sounds like he wants to live the American Dream and there’s not a lot wrong with that, but just as one can succeed, so one can fail. Perhaps you might suggest a part-time regular job - just as he had at college - so he has a regular bit of income?

8

I live on the other side of the country from him so some of this is based on second hand information. He only does well enough to barely keep up with rent, food and a cell phone bill. AFAIK, he is not squandering anything, just not earning it. I think he knows his products well. I’m not sure how he relates to customers, but in other social interactions he comes across as a nice guy, but a little bit odd.

One other thing, for a guy in such a desperate situation, he’s not working too hard. My folks and younger brother relate that he often will take off a Monday (“Slow business day, Mondays”) or a Friday afternoon (“Nothing doing today”) and he seldom, if ever works weekends.

This is sort of the plan we’re working on. Help is tied to gaining steady employment, visiting a career counselor, and possibly therapy.

His resistance to such a plan is unbelievable.

It’s a reasonable suggestion. However, if the family is united in the belief that Stephen has long exhausted the possibility of things working out on this trajectory, then perhaps a temporizing measure sends the wrong message. I’m sure he can figure out that a part-time job would put more money in his pocket. But, should his acceptance of a part time position start the family aid flowing?

9

I’m not sure about the confrontation. With what do you want to confront him? That he’s a failure? It’s unlikely he doesn’t know this, on at least some level. That he “should” be pursuing one of the careers his family imagines for him? That’s really not true, and may in fact be part of the problem. That he’s responsible for himself? If that isn’t already a known fact, it should be - but it’s not necessarily a confrontation point. It could also be said with love, not accusation.

Showdowns are about power, as is his sponging off your parents. If you want to change the power dynamic of this situation you can do so immediately. Stop talking about his career, money, education - any of it. Commiserate with his difficulties but don’t take responsibility. Change your relationship to something positive that you can share, and you just might help him foster strengths through your friendship (not stewardship).

Your brother sounds to me like he is probably very depressed and perhaps has some neuroses that could be treated, but it’s up to him to seek that. There’s no point in butting heads over how he’s living his life.

My $.02.

10

As a person who has been in commissioned sales most of their life, I think I can understand, to some degree, his desire to not get into a steady 9-5 job which you see (somewhat contemptuously to be honest) as the highest aspiration he should have. If you are going to be in sales, however, you have to be disciplined, focused and fairly sharp to be successful. Mid thirties is a little long in the tooth to be considering educational quid pro quos from 15 years ago. If he’s going to be a businessman he needs to be a businessman, and at this point he’s just piddling.

Given the context of the interaction you described, I think I have a pretty good idea of where he is mentally and emotionally, and he’s going to have to hit bottom before he commits to change. He has constructed his life to generate the minimal amount of emotional and physical investment necessary to survive, and this is his comfort zone. His protective shell to enable this and get people to leave him alone is his “businessman” image. And let me be clear that it’s not laziness that gets someone into these impossible to break out of situations. It’s a complicated emotional and attitudinal issue in many cases.

He needs a life attitude change, and being poor is likely to initiate this faster than sessions on the therapists couch. The dangerous part in this scenario is that people committed to this low work/ low energy lifestyle will do almost anything to maintain it as it defines their universe, and how far he is willing to drop before he rebounds (assuming he can) is an unknown.

Quite frankly, I really doubt there is much (in real world terms) you can do for him. People in his scenario will keep trying to survive at the margins as long as they can. His life is predicated on the next big hit being around the corner, even is he is not doing much to make that happen.

Unless he gets hit by an attitudinal epiphany little is likely to change.

11

It’s not comtempt but frustration from watching someone you care about barely tread water, if not disappear below the surface. Note in the OP where I said in the past I felt proud of his stick-tuitiveness.

I think that is accurate

Hope it’s not so bleak :confused:

12

Hi all,

I wanted to thank everyone for their partcipation and attempts to help. I would like to clarify some things that choosybeggar is not aware of as he is on the west coast and we live on the east.

Medstar: Everyone in our family is in 100% agreement with your assessment that there is nothing WE can do for him. We have tried everything, and everything is met with excuses or anger or resentment or simply as choosy put it, “We don’t know anything about it.” Another problem he has is his constant lying about situations. We really don’t know the full extent of the seriousness of the situation as whenever we attempt to find out we are met with these statements of “you wouldn’t understand” or simply a flat out lie that cannot be true. But perhaps it is, if you call him on it the next day the story has changed. I’m not quite sure if he’s in so deep that he believes his own lies and cannot tell the truth from a lie.

TroubleAgain: I’m not sure if he see’s himself as “too good to work for a living,” although the thought has crossed my mind. It seems more to me that there is nothing good enough for him to be doing. We even had a job all lined up for him to accept in teaching, but his excuses persisted as to why he couldn’t take that. Like starting at 40k - 50k wasn’t good enough, as he sees himself as a director or CEO and wants a job to pay minimally 100k. Then it was, I can’t teach, I have had a childhood fear about school… or something like that.

elbows: Thanks, I’m sorry for your situation. Buts its good to hear there are ways to deal with the situation that has worked for others.

testride: About giving him a free ride. We have been giving him a free ride for the last 10 - 12 years. I admired the fact that he, my older brother, put himself through college and was independent. I modeled my life after what I saw when I was in college, and while I did get “the free ride,” I’ve been doing nothing but paying it back. I got him an apartment in the city when he needed one (got a sublet from a friend who was doing work in Calif.) The idea there was someone could pay rent while he was out in Calif. What did he do? He managed to let on that he was living there by bragging to neighbors and got kicked out, so my friend lost his apartment in the city because of him. After that incident he moved in with me for about 3 - 6 months, rent free. Then I payed his rent and his storage locker fees for him as he had no money and forgave that loan. I then purchased a bed he had in the storage locker and gave him new pricing hoping that money would do him good, plus he could close the storage locker and not need to waste the monthly fees. He still has that locker, almost as it is the last thing he owns that has any of his stuff, which in reality is nothing. I think it has only a 19" TV and an old 486 computer with 14" monitor. Nothing of value, but he holds on to that locker. Then he runs up and maxes out on credit cards and my mom bails him out. He does it a second time (I believe, choosy will have to correct me) and she bails him out again. She may not have bailed him out a second time, and just let him sit with debt.

Astro: I have nothing against sales, but the importance (I see) in working 9-5 will give him a pattern to live by. In essence a cookbook for work. Like you said, some can succeed if they have drive, but he does not. He is just getting by and after 10 - 12 years of doing it, it is time to realize it isn’t working and go back to what did work for him, namely the 9-5 job that made him independent.

This is getting a little long. The only other thing I wanted to address was choosy saying that in a social setting he comes across as a nice guy, just somewhat odd. There always seems to be some “outburst” or “pay attention to me” outlandish remark that he has become known for. Generally at family functions with in-laws he makes some off-wall comment that people just shouldn’t say. I’ll give a great example. We were at dinner one night and he began to talk politics, it was at the time of justification of the war. Anyway, one of the in-laws was against it. Well got on his soapbox and talked, rather loudly in the restaurant, that Doug (the father) didn’t know what he was talking about. That since Stephen was a chemist, he knows what one gram of Anthrax could do. Then he said, if one gram of anthax was in the air right now, it would kill you, Doug, your wife, Helen, and your daugher Karen and son Tom. Well this grandstanding event made me squirm as he was in essence yelling it (as loud as possible in a public place.) And I must say that naming the family members by name and then continuing going into details about how they will die horribly, is a little too graphic of a point to make at dinner time conversation. Plus he then afterwards took credit for how “he shut them up.” What he didn’t seem to get was that they were in shock over what he said. They then later wanted an apology, which he refused. It is stuff like this which best describes the person Stephen is.

Also one thing choosy didn’t mention. I agree with all of you that we need to see what his low is. I think we have all thought about what is the lowest I could ever see myself. Now take that a multiply it by 10 and you still haven’t reached where he has been. I was shocked to see how he came out one weekend to watch cartoons (something he does regularly.) And not Simpsons or Family Guy, but real Saturday morning cartoons, UGO (or something like that, I don’t even know what its called, its the dumb Magic type cartoons with cards.) Anyway, the point. When he came out he had holes in the soles of his shoes and he had worn a suit to the point of needing a patch to cover a whole. The suit, by the way he didn’t purchase, it was given to him by my mom. All he was missing was the hobo hat as he had the requisite holes in his socks.

Wow, okay, I’ll give your eyes a break, and promise I won’t type anymore or this much in the future. I just wanted to address some things I read, as I joined this discussion a little late.

I hope I’m not coming off angry, as I’m just frustrated. I want to help him soooo much, but all attempts to help him I feel I have been enabling him. He is my big brother, and I just want him to do well. Well to the point that HE is happy with his life.

13

As I read the OP, I was struck by this part:

And then astro hit on a lot of what I was thinking:

To me it seems it’s not success he’s after, it’s avoidance (fear) of failure.

Perhaps the first “real work” experience you describe above he perceived as a “failure” on his part (illogical, yes, but not unheard of). And it was devastating to his sense of his self and abilities so that he’s afraid of really sticking his neck out again for fear of “failing.” (“If I know I never really tried, then it’s not really a reflection on my true abilities if I fail…”)

Now he’s just in a place with a lot of inertia and a weird sense of comfort and he doesn’t see himself as having the skills (read: confidence) to get himself out of it.

Then again, perhaps I’m just projecting? :eek:

No advice for moving forward, just hoping to add some possible insight…

14

Well, I’ve come along late in the game, and much of what might be said has already been. I was going to point you again towards astro’s comments, but I see you’ve both absorbed them.

I’ll also chime in with doubts about the positive efficacy of a confrontation/intervention.

Much of my adult life has been spent in entrepreneurial endeavor. But hardly all. While there other things to be addressed in y’alls’ brother’s behavior, one thing I’ll point out is his disdain for any employment. Several efforts have made up my life, all of them learning experiences. And (probably all, but at least) the most defining one was a venture started after several years of learning about the business while in the employ of another. I didn’t clone my employer’s business, but rather I started a complimentary business.

Oh so many people before and after me have pursued a similar strategy. While working for that employer I wasn’t making great wages, but I was both learning how that business worked as well as meeting as many people as I could who were involved in that business. That was important.

And then kicks in the discipline that astro touched upon, which might also be described as one’s work ethic. For the first five years of the geophysical company, I worked my ass off. Saturdays and Sundays were the more productive office days as the phone didn’t ring quite as much.

And then, almost suddenly, about five years into it, it started to get easier. Referrals started rolling in, fruitless marketing didn’t sponge up so much time and we started making money.

I did enjoy the being your own boss thing, and being able to say “I’m gone for the day” when an old friend might pop up on Friday afternoon on the tail end of a business trip, hungry for some beers. What the heck - I knew I’d be in the office addressing as many issues as I could in the morning.

So far, all I’ve spoken to is the work ethic and, not unimportantly, learning or knowing how a segment of industry works. Although I didn’t go into any detail, part of knowing how a business works includes not just knowing the industry standard deals, and what variations one might profitably spin off of those, but also having a solid grasp of what the grunt work entails. If it’s going to take 15 days, don’t tell’em 5 days.

On to other things. I’ll say up front that I am not professionally qualified to make any sort of psychological evaluation of your brother (nor, as I understand it, is anybody else, over the Internet), but it sounds to me like he’s a little bit lost. It seems, from what y’all have said, that he doesn’t really have an idea, and he’s playing out a character. I was there once, when I knew I I wanted to leave my first (post-college) employer, and I printed up business cards saying, “Ventures Unlimited.” Makes me blanche to think of it now.

But it was a start. A traction point.

15

I’m a little confused by you brothers. In one sentence you acknowledge that there’s nothing you can do for him, and in the next you want him to do as you would choose for him. You want him to take responsibility for himself, but in the manner you’ve picked. I don’t think you can have it both ways. You don’t have to approve, but it isn’t up to you to fix or even know about the mess that is how he manages his life. It’s his problem. OTOH I agree totally with not bailing him out. Maybe he is a bum (for the moment, anyway). So what. Do you love him, or are you just tired of being embarrassed?

BTW we’ve had this problem in our family. Through a series of choices and with a thoroughly misanthropic outlook, my mother-in-law wound up living in her truck with her two cats. We took her in, clothed her, fed her, saw to it that she got the medical care she needed, helped her get public assistance, and helped her find a job – TWICE! In two different cities! And it didn’t do a lick of good. She hasn’t changed a whit. So we stopped.

You two don’t want to hear this, but I’m serious: Let it go. Offer your relationship if you want to, but without this issue. You’ve already tried butting heads and it hasn’t worked so far - turning up the volume isn’t likely to change that. Unless I’m missing something & so far you’ve all been pretending to adore his mooching, in which case you’re all nuts. :wink:

16

How do you know this? I don’t have any answers. But younger brother’s note makes it clear that this guy is not just a case of somebody marching to a different drummer. There’s a big difference between following a dream and living in dreamland. An adult who skips work to watch cartoons, who rants in public places about the horrible deaths that his family can anticipate, who has given up on his appearance and who just generally can’t think straight is disturbed. People get hospitalized for less. And if he lies to his family all the time, what’s he telling his customers? It’s hard to believe that he could conduct business responsibly. He may be defrauding people who think they’re buying health insurance from him, which could ultimately wreck their lives and land him in jail. I say again, has this guy been to a psychiatrist? Quite a number of mental illnesses start to manifest themselves in men when they are in their '20s, which is when it sounds like things got weird with this guy. It won’t be much use to talk about a job, loans, life plans or anything else until he gets his mind turned around.

17

Younger_brother sent Stephen a heartfelt email cataloging his concerns and stating a plan of action. The following is Stephen’s response (sent to Younger_brother, myself, and my parents).

18

Mommie? Calling her Mommie at 36? Ummmmm…that is disturbing.

19

Shirley Ujest: He also refers to himself in the third person tense. Like, Stephen doesn’t like it when… Does that quite a bit too.

testride: Unfortunately, at this point I’m not sure I disagree that he doesn’t have any issues. The thing is, how do we go about getting him help? As he will deny that he needs it and since he’s an adult you cannot force him to do anything, unless we seek to have him ruled unfit.

I guess I’m just more used to the day-to-day stuff than choosy since I see him quite a bit more.

fessie: Take it easy. Let me help some of your confusion. I assure you we do love him. Overall we just want to see him do well in life. I think if he went to work at McDonalds, or the Post Office, or as a Bus Driver, I would be proud of him. Just seeing him take every opposite stance in life that you know to be true is a little frustrating. Such as not going to work when he feels like it, and claiming to be the boss, which we know to be a lie, those things get a little tough to listen too after a while. I really have no idea what is truth (if anything) and what is a lie at this point. THAT is frustrating, as it is tough to have a relationship with my brother if he isn’t honest, ever!

This “tough love” stance is a new thing to us, literally we decided we should try to implement in no more than about a week ago, seeing all other efforts meet with no success. And it does kill us to be attempting it, I’m just fearful he would do something drastic. As he says he’s sad, and he has no social life besides my mom and me. He comes out every weekend… but I talked about that. My thought for “hand picking him a job” was that some people are too scared to go through the interview process (I think someone eluded to lack of skills?) If that were his problem, this would avoid that. Granted not the best thing to be avoiding things, but I figured he needs a routine, some routine to get him back on track, and landing him a steady job might be just what he needed (frequent pay, friends, etc.) He also claims that he doesn’t sleep nights and I was hoping getting a 9 - 5 job would force him to constrain himself to SOME schedule which would fatigue him to the point of needing sleep on some normal schedule. I honestly believed (at one point) that he was missing a routine. Now, I’m not too sure what he’s missing… Ya know I’m not qualified to diagnose an illness, but as I write all this and link it all together perhaps it paints a larger picture. Add all the above to his frequent complaints about migranes and that might be a tell-tale sign of something larger being the cause…?

20

Excerpts from “Stephen’s” note:

Does this reflect a sophisticated understanding of how business works?

This sounds like it could be taken directly from a late-night TV “how to get rich” scam. “All you have to do is form lots of corporations and start lots of businesses…” What is the actual product or service that he intends to market for himself? Insurance? And how does he plan to do that?

What does this mean? He didn’t sign up someone he was supposed to? They didn’t pay? He was paid in advance and had to pay it back? Do you understand this?

Unless he’s a defense contractor selling planes to the Pentagon, one sale in two months is not going to win him the productivity prize.

So he’s changed employers? Or he’s working for two different employers? Or he’s got two different companies paying him commissions on the same sale?

Well, I guess that could happen–if there really is a check, and a company that owes it to him.

He’s clinging to his last thread, and it’s starting to break, and he knows it.

If I read the original post correctly, choosybeggar is an M.D. He should know–or at least know where to find out–how to get someone into psychiatric care even against his will. His complaints about migraines might be a suitable pretext to get him into a psychiatrist’s office–“steve, we just want to cover all the bases…” This just sounds like so much more than someone not wanting a 9 to 5 job.