So, after reading responses in this thread and elsewhere I have to say I’m a bit embarrassed. I didn’t realize that Trump et al and their supporters were denying it’s a ‘ban’, and I can see why several posters in this thread were suspicious of my OP and figured me for a Trump person since I was asking the question. :o
I looked at Whack-a-Mole’s cutting post “Or, maybe, 90,000 but who’s counting?”, and while I think that figure is over inflated, it’s still shocking…I had no idea we were talking about this scale. I thought it was a few hundred people, maybe a few thousand…I didn’t realize that such numbers came into the US from those countries every day. :(:smack:
Also, I looked more into what several posters were saying about Giuliani’s comment seemingly confirming that Trump was looking for a legal method to block Muslim’s that wouldn’t run afoul of our legal system, and while I’m a bit skeptical I’m convinced there is enough there to say that’s probably what happened. I, again, was unaware of this aspect, so appreciate having my nose rubbed in it…sometimes that’s the only way to learn.
In short, you all HAVE helped me understand why people are calling it a ‘Muslim ban’. I’m convinced…it is a Muslim ban, no quotes. It’s not a full ban on Muslim’s, true, but it’s obviously targeted against Muslim’s (I always knew that) and it is affecting far more people than I realized, thus is a bigger deal than I thought it was. I still think my concerns about illegals are valid, and it’s the aspect that I’m most worried about for personal reasons, but it doesn’t diminish what’s going on here.
I always thought that this was a travesty…now I can see it’s a greater one than I thought. Appreciate the responses. As Obama said, elections have consequences. I hope we can survive the consequences of this clusterfuck.
XT props to you. I form better reasoned opinions from what I gather here. That’s why I ask things on here. It’s cool to see a mind opened. I wish it wasn’t as snarky here sometimes but it’s still better than 99% of the internet.
From the EO:
“prioritize refugee claims made by individuals on the basis of religious-based persecution, provided that the religion of the individual is a minority religion in the individual’s country of nationality.”
What constitutes a “minority religion” here? Shia in a Sunni country? Or do only Christians qualify?
And for someone that Trump considered completely ineffectual in dealing with “radical Islamic terrorism”, Obama and his list of nations has certainly achieved near scriptural level of respect among the supporters of the ban. When did Obama become correct and unquestionable in the fight against “radical Islamic terrorism”?
I’m curious. Do you actually think your making a coherent point by snipping y and others’ posts apart and just kinda … rambling, like that? In your head, are you thinking to yourself “Kudos UberArchetype. Although I offered absolutely nothing of substance, I sure showed them fancy liberals!”
8 U.S.C. 1187(a)(12) is specifically about foreigners who would not otherwise require a visa to visit the U.S. (most Europeans, for example) but who had traveled to Iraq, Syria, etc., since 2011. (“You, a citizen and resident of France, have chosen to muck around in Syria in the last few years–we’d kind of like to know what you’ve been doing in that war zone before we’ll let you muck around in OUR country, so we’re going to make you go through the visa vetting process even though other French citizens don’t have to.”)
A European who chose to travel to Sudan or Iraq and then wants to travel to the U.S. presents a entirely different set of risks than somebody who was born in Iraq, who has never lived anywhere besides Iraq, and who has ALREADY gone through the visa vetting process, but Trump (or whoever wrote the order on his behalf) deliberately chose to equate them.
Short answer, only Christians. Shia, Sunni, Trump doesn’t understand the distinction (or Bannon, for that matter). They’re all nasty, evil, anti-American Muslims to that ilk.
Actually, that is quite a clever maneuver on two fronts at once (though I agree it’s a depressing prospect for those of us who care about the state of US higher ed and scientific research):
Translation: “Hey, since you’re going to be shunned and persecuted in your country of residence whose leaders are also trying to discredit and shut down climate science research, why not come up north and work with us instead?”
Triply clever, because if these students/researchers have passed the existing DHS screenings for admission to study or work at a major US university, then they’ve already been very thoroughly security-vetted.
I wuldn’t call it trying to poach students so much as offering them a viable alternative to the newly-hateful climate that Trumpistas and their bigoted leader have fostered in the US. And we have only ourselves to blame for letting it come to this.
From Wiki:
“In February 1933 while on a visit to the United States, Einstein knew he could not return to Germany with the rise to power of the Nazis under Germany’s new chancellor, Adolf Hitler.”
A big part of America’s success is built on refugees and immigrants like Einstein. Even for immigrants and students who are not from Trump’s currently banned 7 countries what will be the impact as they rethink the uncertain atmosphere that has been created?
Not in the ban
Saudia Arabia: Not at war. Rich. Good place to open a luxury hotel or otherwise take money from rich people.
UAE: Not at war. See above
Egypt: Fighting terrorists so sorta iffy but not a disaster.
Lebanon: Not at war but not in particularly good shape as far as I understand.
In the ban
Libya (which as misspelled on the chart): A fuckingdisaster
Syria: Another fucking disaster
Iraq: See above with the caveat Bush
Iran: The whole ‘Great Satan’ thing. Doubt Trump could do business there if he wanted to do so.
Yemen: Civil war disaster
Somalia: Been a disaster for a while. Will likely continue to be a disaster. The only thing good to come out of this country in the recent past was Captain Phillips. On the bright side, Somalia dropped to #2 on the ‘Fragile state’ index. Yay Somalia!
Sudan: Dafur. Nothing like a few chemical weapons attacks to control your population. Once again, a fucking disaster.
Would you open a luxury hotel in Sudan? Libya? Syria? Somalia? Do business there?
I suspect that if you look at other folks who do business in the region, their list of countries that they do business in would match Trumps list. Why? Because most people don’t want to do business in countries that are fucking disasters.
Also, it would be interesting to find out when Trump started doing business in Egypt. I suspect is began a while ago, like before he ran for Prez.
What does “fully assimilate” mean? Let me guess…step 1: abandon one’s religion if it happens to be that religion; step 2: stop looking like those people.
How the hell has this thread gone on for more than 50 posts beyond that?
This is as clear of a /thread as you can get. If this was in General Questions, you could say, “question answered, locking thread”.
Honestly, spin isn’t required. All we have to do is quote what you guys say, and that’s enough. It’s like Ken Ham complaining about the media lying by quoting him directly.
There’s another version. You could call it the craven version or the sage version depending on outlook. (And many Germans survived by following it to the letter).
I remember that in the classic documentary of WWII “The World at War” One very telling part of the general mentality of the Germans was shown when a German woman testified to the documentary makers, she reported that she began to hate Hitler only when the war came to them in German proper.
But it was not hatred against the regime. It was like the hatred one has among gangsters when they cross each other. Because Hitler promised them that they would win half of the world so he asked them to help him by supporting him; and now they had nothing, just their clothes.
Of course, the Germans that were like that in WWII were the “sage” ones.
I don’t expect any army to invade us, but I do think that other bone headed things that autocrats and dictators typically do will undermine the American economy. Just as it took place in Nazi Germany. (Germany was recovering economically right when the Nazis were taking power and some got the wrong lesson from that that the fascist state was good and efficient. Not really) one big lesson from those days is that science is an even more international effort than it was in those days and the ethnic cleansing that was attempted by Hitler ended sending the best and brightest to other nations that will eventually eat their lunch.
According to the Department of Homeland Security, 940 people have been denied boarding from the issuance of the executive order on Friday through Feb. 1. This number does not include people aboard aircraft when the order was issued who were detained or deported, nor does it include ticket holders who didn’t attempt to board. Assuming that the last week in January is about like any other week, the “a few hundred or maybe a few thousand” is a severe underestimate. “Many tens of thousands” would have been a better guess. And this doesn’t include green card holders who are now afraid to risk overseas travel.
But I agree that this is all a distraction to wear down the public for worse things to come. By strenuously attacking the very ideals of liberty that have guided America for centuries, the more substantial agenda may pass almost unnoticed. The disintegration of regulation is already well underway; and Trump favorites will be stealing billions of dollars as fast as they can.
… And one of the Trump spokescreatures, or Donald itself, has specifically mentioned something about an exemption for Christians. (Soil your own Google tab if you need a cite for that.)
