I wouldn’t have otherwise entered my two cents, but my opinion seems to be a minority in this thread: the behavior described in the OP is really fucking weird. It’s understandable to offer a hand to a feeble or pregnant woman (or man), but to categorically offer a hand to any woman to help them embark on the dangerous journey from top of stairs to bottom is risible nonsense that should have been-- and, for the most part, was– abandoned in 1904. I have no doubt that the OP is a nice guy, but sometimes my patience with these people who blithely seem unaware that cultural mores have advanced since the turn of the century-- and claim to act bewildered that other people don’t act the same-- begins to wear thin.
To be fair, he did it twice.
Agreed. And to offer a second time is pushy and, in my opinion, creepy.
I’m not overbalanced by my boobs or something. My allotment of estrogen doesn’t make me unsteady on my feet.
I haven’t read the thread, but to offer twice suggests an interest in physical contact with the woman in question, which is kinda creepy.
At least holding doors doesn’t actually require you to touch the recipient of your consideration.
I wouldn’t accept your help and I would be surprised and possibly irritated if you offered it to me twice. I agree that offering twice would begin to feel like you wanted to get physically close to me, which would be a tad unnerving.
I wouldn’t want to embarass you so I’d be polite in refusing. I always act grateful when men act chivalrously around me, even though I think it’s silly and outdated to be more polite just because of someone’s gender. (Though If you’re a good friend and near my age I might rib you about it.)
Maybe I should be more rude. Men might not like women being rude, but I don’t think they like mixed messages and being expected to read between the lines – to generalise.
I also think it’s weird to assume that women need help going down stairs. I would have refused politely the first time and thought you were a weirdo the second time (I don’t wear heels). Lama Pacos summed up my feelings perfectly:
“It’s understandable to offer a hand to a feeble or pregnant woman (or man), but to categorically offer a hand to any woman to help them embark on the dangerous journey from top of stairs to bottom is risible nonsense that should have been-- and, for the most part, was-- abandoned in 1904.”
What does being a woman have to do with needing assistance? It’s so…smug and condescending. Having a vagina doesn’t make me a dainty, wilting flower who can’t walk down stairs.
I don’t think this is about whether or not women want help on stairs, but about ‘being seen to be a gentleman’. And I agree with the OP that that is a no-win situation. There is no one standard of good behaviour any more (if there ever was). People from different regions, or social, groups, or age groups, and so on will all have different ideas about the right thing to do. You really can’t please everyone.
Personally, I don’t appreciate someone offering me help on stairs, or pulling my chair out for me. It’s embarrassing, and awkward, because I now have another person in my space that I have to manoeuvre around. I also don’t like being singled out for my gender in such a way. If someone assumes women want/need help on stairs, what else do they just automatically assume about women, that may or may not be true about me?
There are a lot of other ways to be seen as well-mannered besides “helping” an able-bodied person down the stairs. If I saw a person help another person who NEEDED help down stairs (both parties gender neutral) I would think the helper had excellent manners. Similar situations: holding a door open for a person whose arms were full, giving up a seat on the bus for the elderly/infirm, etc.
Helping those that need help - awesome
Helping those that are perfectly capable - weird
Yep. People keep tossing out terms like “damned if you do, damned if you don’t”, and “no win situation”, but I’ve yet to actually hear what is the apocryphal downside of just not offering to help able-bodied women move about from place to place.
How about not offering to help? I think that qualifies as a win.
And whether or not to offer isnt really even the issue of this thread. The real issue is - assuming you offer and the woman says she doesnt want your help, can you trust what she says or should you keep asking? If so, how many times do you have to ask before it’s likely she really doesn`t want help.
It’s utterly ridiculous.
Personally, I always offer a hand for balance if a) I am acquainted with the woman or girl in question and we get along well enough that this isn’t going to come across as a creepy gesture and b) she’s wearing heels or has some other reason to need help (pregnant, known injury, armful of books, drunk, whatever. One of my friends I offer an arm to at the slightest hint of unsteadiness, even on level ground, because she’s a well-known klutz.) Basically, I don’t offer unless there’s a particular reason for her to not be able to take the steps on her own. To be absolutely fair, though, I wouldn’t offer a hand to a man based on footwear, though I would for most of the other reasons.
About half the time I get a friendly “No, I’ve got it, thanks,” and about half the time she’ll accept. I’ve never gotten a negative or unfriendly response, probably in part because I’m almost always offering to friends who know I’m a bit old-fashioned.* I keep it up because some women really appreciate it and I get such good feedback on occasion.
*I’m twenty-one, for reference.
I applaud Lama Pacos’ addition to the thread!
JThunder, this is also a no win situation for women who don’t care for that sort of offer - don’t feel like you’re overly oppressed over there. Being offered help to go down stairs would make me feel uncomfortable. If I knew the offerer well, I think my response would be raised eyebrows. Otherwise, a simple “no thanks.” But to repeat that interaction in short order? Then I’d really start to feel uncomfortable. I’m not sure how I’d react, but I’d certainly resent it. Do I remain ‘polite’ and allow this person to keep doing something that makes me increasingly uncomfortable? Or do I speak up for myself and find that suddenly people think I’m bitchy? No win.
You say that this woman was a good friend of yours. How can you know someone well enough to call them a good friend and not have a sense for whether or not they are the sort of person who would appreciate an offer of help down stairs?
While I’m on a tear, don’t touch my chair in a restaurant, either. I hate that shit.
This thread is bizarre. I still don’t understand, was the woman in the OP a friend of JThunder’s? If not, why is he offering to help a complete (able-bodied) stranger navigate a few steps? And if so, shouldn’t he realize if she said no once, she wasn’t joking?
Call me ungentlemanly, but I wouldn’t even think of offering help to an able-bodied woman who wasn’t my wife or my 87 year old grandmother when going down a few steps.
Count me in as another “Huh? This is really, really weird behavior. I think you’ve internalized too many black-and-white movies or something. Do you also kiss women’s hands upon first meeting, lay your jacket on puddles, and so on?”
I mean, I’m not a woman, but the mere fact that this behavior is so uncustomary in our society suggests that it would be uncomfortably alienating for many recipients, even if they smile wanly and take it. And, like everyone says, it’s not a “damned if you don’t” situation; that vast majority of us who don’t do this sort of thing get along just fine, pretty much no one holding it against us.
When and why did you start doing this, incidentally? Was it something you observed other people you knew doing and then emulated, or something you came up with on your own?
I agree with this. There is no upside to offering help down stairs to able-bodied women. I’ve never once been insulted when a man didn’t offer me a hand. It’s never even crossed my mind. Whereas, if you do go around offering your hand, you’re going to encounter women who find this behavior creepy or condescending.
JThunder, where are you located? Maybe we are experiencing some kind of cultural disconnect, since you report that your co-workers agree with you, but most of the people in this thread disagree.
That’s what it reminds me of, someone who has never met or spoken to women thinking they know what women are like based on old movies or books. “Son, women are these strange, mystical creatures!” It screams unfamiliarity and overcompensation to me.
As I said before, I don’t offer this help on ordinary stairs, such as the kind one might find in an office building. I know I’ve said this at least twice before, but I acknowledge that some people might have missed that.
I do offer it if the person is old, has some unusual burden, or if the steps are unusually high and might be difficult for some to traverse. In fact, on the second occasion, one of the museum staff members smiled and said, “Hey, that’s my job.” Obviously, they recognized that there was a signficant chance that these steps would be difficult for some people to traverse.
And I think that’s what some people are missing here. This isn’t a case of offering help to able-bodied people who are traversing normal steps. As stated early on this in this thead, not all situations are like that. Stepping off some vehicles can be more difficult for some women, based in part on the way they are dressed. Even an otherwise able-bodied person might otherwise have difficulty. That’s why some of the people in our party accepted the help, whereas others did not.
One woman outside our group made an approving comment about the need to help women off these steps. Apparently she saw that some people could need help in this situation or would otherwise appreciate it.
Personally, I appreciate that some people here think it’s a silly gesture. That’s why I solicited your opinions, to see what you think. I also can’t discount the comments I’ve heard from women who said that they appreciate these gestures, especially when the terrain is more difficult to walk on.
At this point, I simply think that some of you need to be more flexible in your thinking. Not every woman holds the same view on this issue, which is why I think it’s foolish to insist on rigid rules such as “Ask once and no more, no matter how much the terrain changes!” This is the sort of situation where a measure of tolerance and understanding from both sides is appropriate, rather than a rigid insistence that your way is the only acceptable solution.
It’s been stated before, but it’s apparently worth emphasizing. We’re not talking about offering twice in rapid succession. We’re talking about offering again later in the course of the day, in a different situation where either the steps or the ground might be different, or even when the person might be feeling more fatigued.
Nobody said anything about “the top of the stairs to the bottom.” It’s about helping them off a vehicle, which implies the end of the steps. As others earlier on in this thread clearly perceived, this can sometimes involve a larger step than normal.
This is clearly another area of disconnect in this discussion.
It seems to me that people can’t understand a simple concept. The OP did not ask for your personal opinion about the situation. Then why the heck do you offer it? It seems that some people want to debate the use of modern chivalry. Fine. Why the heck can’t you get that together in one thread in the appropriate forum?