Are you really saying you would have stopped after twice? Why? If you cant trust a woman when she says she doesnt want help, why trust her after she says it twice?
In reality you only stopped because she snapped at you.
But the real question is why do we need a middle ground? I’m glad everyone agrees that badgering a woman until she gives in isn’t acceptable. But what’s wrong with the other extreme? Why would it be so awful to listen to a woman when she says she doesn`t want your help the first time?
Shot From Guns and others have pointed out that the woman clearly was aware you were willing to help. Do you think she was incapable of asking if she later needed help?
Because, as my co-workers said, each situation is different. I think that two denials is enough to establish a likely pattern, just as I think that saying “Once, and no more than that” is overly harsh.
You are stepping over the line and making an unwarranted assumption.
I know you want to paint this as a situation in which there can be no disagreement, but as I said, my colleagues have expressed a contrary opinion. Would you at least allow for the possibility that this “Once and no more!” standard is perhaps needlessly restrictive, especially if the next set of steps is steeper, higher or involves different terrain?
I am one of those women who likes to wear insanely unsensible shoes on a regular basis. My shortest heels are in the 3 1/2 inch high range, with some of my higher ones topping out at 5 or 6 inches. I’m 5’9 to start with, combine the heels and I’m a tall chick. Now, I can walk for hours in my heels on flat ground, but throw in things like stairs, hills or (as mentioned above) grates, I will get a little unsteady. I am notorious for grabbing onto friends (male and female alike) to steady myself. If someone were to offer me assistance, I would be very grateful.
Now, my female friends all know that I am a giant klutz and make the effort to offer me thier arms when I am crawling out of a car, walking down stairs etc. I would never think it is offensive. I honestly think it becomes second nature at some point. Which means there is a point where these friends may do the same to other people. It’s a habit, it’s not condescending, it’s not patronizing. It’s just a habit. So, I don’t see why it would be any different if my male friends were to do the same thing. But I’m not easily offended.
JThunder, we don’t know how you’ve phrased this to your coworkers, either. If you were asking something like, “If you refuse an offered hand one time, does that mean there wouldn’t be a case where you’d appreciate it later?” then you’re skewing the results.
Try asking, “If I offer you a hand, and you decline, would you be annoyed if I offer you a hand again in an identical situation?”
Too, the results are going to be affected by whether or not they’re the type of people to accept the *initial *offer. So maybe split the question into two parts, and only ask the second of people who respond that they’d decline the initial hand. I’d bet that the majority of people who would decline the initial hand would also be annoyed by a second offer in an identical situation, which is the most relevant to the situation you found yourself in.
Why do you need to establish a likely pattern? Why not do what women say the first time. You don`t need to scry. Seriously. Just take what she says at face value.
Are you saying you offered to help a 3rd time?
No I’m not. I’m willing concede that clearly communicated wishes by certain populations shouldn’t immediately be taken at their word. For instance, a child or a mentally retarded person may say they don’t need help, and it would be ok to offer again. Women in general are not in the same class as children and the retarded, and you should accept what they say at face value.
I would totally not have a problem with offers of help in this situation (aside from the fact that I can’t even stand up on heels, let alone walk on them! ) Friends get to know each other and know what’s appropriate and what’s not. My friends all know better than to do anything “chivalrous” or gender-related with me, because I hate it. But everybody’s different, and part of being a friend is knowing what’s okay and what isn’t.
Everything I’ve said here hinges on the assumption that it’s a man dealing with a woman he doesn’t know (or doesn’t know very well.)
I asked whether offering once was enough or not. I most certainly did not use the phrasing that you did.
The latest gal that I consulted (and old friend) says that she appreciates the gesture. She said that twice was reasonable, and that three times might be pushing it. So she didn’t go to the extreme of saying “Once and no more than that,” but she did agree that there comes a point where enough is enough.
Just as we’ve seen diverse reactions in this thread, there are diverse reactions in the real world. One co-worker expressed appreciation for a mild bit of chivalry, but draws the line at more ostentatious displays. One said that she sees both sides of this issue, and that she chooses to be gracious. A third one had the most extreme reaction, and expressed disgust that anyone would be offended by this gesture. Then there’s the fourth gal, who went on and on about how much she LOVED chivalrous gestures, even as she said that asking three times might be pushing it.
No, I’m not. In fact, that is practically the opposite of what I’m saying. Now it’s clear that you’re not paying attention. No wonder you’re unwilling to admit even the slightest possibility of ambiguity in situations like this.
Though I am ok if they err on the side of being too polite. At least it was meant well.
Over the weekend, I was on a bus ride and a young man (I’d guess college age) offered his seat to an older one (I’d guess 60s), who declined. The younger man did notice that the older man was standing, he failed to notice that the older man was wearing board shorts, sunglasses, and trail running shoes.
It was a good impulse. I applaud that, as I applaud the OPs initial impulse. But it’s sometimes good to notice more than just gender or age.
BTW, I just spoke to one other friend, a young 20-something gal. She expressed the opinion that once was probably enough, though she wasn’t emphatic about it. So I’d chalk that up as one person who’s siding with Fuzzy et al, even though her answer was softer and more uncertain.
I think that’s where you and I are having this disconnect. You’re interpreting “No thanks” to mean “No in this situation, and no in all upcoming situations.” It’s that interpretation which I think is hasty and needlessly restrictive.
The fourth gal that I consulted was more explicit. She opined that some women will say no initially because they’re shy about accepting help, but will likely accept the offer in the future. Now you might disagree with that, but I think it goes to show that an initial “No thanks” is not necessarily equivalent to “No thanks to all future offers” – especially if (as co-worker #1 and #2 said), it’s later in the day or the steps and terrain were to change.
Despite your insinuation, I don’t think it’s a sign of mental retardation for someone to initially decline, and then accept later on. Obviously, this is not an excuse to badger the person, but it does explain why you and I disagree on the “Once, and no more than once” rule.
That’s exactly what you are doing. You are insisting that their initial refusal is enough to establish that pattern, and that it must automatically cover all future situations, regardless of terrain.
Youre wrong about that. I am insisting that when a woman says she doesnt want help she means it and you should respect her decision the same way you’d respect a man’s decision. There’s no pattern.
Ok on rereading this I should say I do know what et al means. I just glossed over it the first time because I’ve never seen somebody seriously say “well there’s at least one person who agrees with that one guy and everybody else”.
It’s clear that some percentage of women feel differently than you do, JThunder. Based on that, you should expect that some percentage of women you offer this service to will not be appreciative. I think it would be best if you simply accept that you’ll be looked on as helpful and gentlemanly by some women, and as a misanthropist and boorish by others. We really have no way to figure out the percentages here; there are too many variables.
You were asking people’s opinions. Mine is that I’d rather treat women as similar to men in these types of situations as possible. If a woman let’s me know that she appreciates doors being held open and a hand coming down stairs, I will offer it. Same for a man. If I offer a woman something and she refuses, I won’t offer it again unless she asks. Same for a man.
Things are different when you know someone but in dealing with strangers I’d rather let them dictate the interaction rather than impose myself.
From my initial reading of the OP and your subsequent posts, I thought you were talking about a situation in which you offer help and then when she says no you ask again in the immediate future (like halfway down the stairs, or after reaching the landing between two floors, or getting onto a bus and then getting off a few stops later) which is why I used the word “badgering.” I see now that that’s not what you were talking about (at least, I hope not.)
I still think it’s weird in general to ask a woman if she needs help on stairs, unless she’s in obvious distress/carrying a large package/or some other variable. I’ve never seen anyone do that. Do you ask every woman? Or just the elderly, ones in high heels, etc? Because as a 27 year old who wears Merrell hiking shoes, if a man (or anyone) asked if I needed help on the stairs I’d probably start laughing thinking it was some kind of joke.
) Friends get to know each other and know what’s appropriate and what’s not. My friends all know better than to do anything “chivalrous” or gender-related with me, because I hate it. But everybody’s different, and part of being a friend is knowing what’s okay and what isn’t.