Mine includes not offering something a second time when the first offer was clearly rejected. She could have phrased it nicer, certainly, but at some point the person offering the unsolicited help needs to take some responsibility.
I probably would have felt just as bad if a man had yelled behind me. At the same time though, I’d be thinking, “I’m clearly in a hurry, and this person wasn’t part of my group. I think that holding the door open for that person would be a nice gesture, but by no means an obligation.”
Which underscores my point… namely, that people will have very different expectations in these situations. It’d be great if we could all say, “Forget about etiquette; just do what’s helpful!” In the real world though, that’s often not how things play out. It’s not always clear when help is needed or expected, and it’s always clear how people will respond.
I see that corkboard has just highlighted another example of how these differences in perception can occur. (BTW, I think this notion of “slowing down the queue of people getting down the stairs” is a bit of a red herring. Accepting someone’s hand hardly constitutes a significant delay, and there is certainly no delay involved in saying “Thanks, but I’m okay.” Similarly, I think it’s *extremely *unlikely that a man would consider a woman to be “catty or ungrateful” just because she said, “Thanks, but no thanks.”)
Chivalry was a sop extended to women when we were treated as chattel, so pardon me if I don’t swoon at “courtesy” that assumes I’m helpless and in need of assistance and deferential treatment purely on the basis of the configuration of my genitalia.
Offering a helping hand to a *person *who is showing hesitancy or difficulty in climbing, descending, spanning some obstacle, etc.: admirable and polite.
Offering a hand to a woman, just because she’s a woman and you’re a man: I would be offended.
You can safely assume that they do not. It’s not a damned if you do damned if you don’t situation. It isnt even a predicament. If you insist on offering at all and youre rejected, don’t offer again. Simple.
IMO, if you don’t have an obligation to a man, you don’t have an obligation to a woman. You may have noticed that there are several people in the thread who seem to agree with this idea. What does it hurt you to treat all people equally regardless of gender?
…and if they didn’t, you’d presumably post about it on the Dope.
I’m a huge fan of courtesy all around – ceding seats to the elderly, helping people with baby carriages, holding doors when appropriate. Distress isn’t tough to spot, but you’ve got to look at someone’s facial expression and body language, not the signs of their gender.
ETA: In this situation, I’d find the help odd unless the guy doing it made a big show about it and did it with a wink and a smile.
And as I said earlier, I do hold doors open for men as well, though not as often. That’s simply because they’re more likely to barrel through.
In the story that I cited, the offended person happened to be a woman. Would I have felt bad if a man were the one who had sarcastically yelled, “Thanks for holding the door open for me?!?!?” Probably so, but I suspect that they’d be less likely to complain out loud.
If that were my experience, and if this topic of discussion were to come up, then yes, I’d argue that way. It’s not what I’ve experienced though, and in fact, I’ve heard more than one person comment that they think more men should extend these kinds of courtesies at a restaurant. Other people would have different views, as I said right up front.
As we’ve seen here, some people say that you shouldn’t offer help unless it’s clearly needed. Others say that these gestures are appreciated and that they wish more men would do them. That’s why I say that there’s no satisfying everyone.
But this woman told you No politely and clearly and you still insisted on trying it again. If she didn`t respond the way she did the 2nd time would you have tried a 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th time until you ran out of antique street cars?
Even now you keep insisting you were in a damned if you do damned if you don’t situation. You offered your help to a woman. She said no. What else do you need before you’ll accept that she doesn`t want your help?
Maybe next time you should ask her husband if she needs help to get the real answer. Or if she’s single, her father.
I’m not a woman but I would be annoyed if somebody assumed I was less capable of navigating something as simple as a set of stairs just because of my gender. I would be polite about it but there’d be some mental roll eyes involved. If there’s an extenuating circumstance fine, but unless you have reason to believe they will have a problem you should assume that they won’t. If you’re wrong they can always ask for a hand.
I think a good rule of thumb for things like this is to ask yourself “would I also do this for a guy,” if the answer is no I wouldn’t do it. And while you can’t please everyone, I’d rather a woman assume I’m not a ‘gentleman’ than make a woman feel like I think women are inferior creatures that can’t accomplish basic tasks.
I’m sure the op means well. If you’re raised with this being the polite thing to do I’m sure it’s a bit bewildering to catch flak for doing what you think is the right thing. But I think the tradition is outdated and even condescending.
The fact that a woman doesn’t need help the first time is not an automatic guarantee that she wouldn’t appreciate help the second time. As one of my female co-workers pointed out, it depends on a number of things – for example, what kind of ground she’d be stepping onto, how tired she is, and how high the steps are.
That’s why I say that it’s overly simplistic to say, “She said no the first time around. That settles the matter.” I understand your opinion, but the female co-worker in question says the exact opposite, and I understand that as well. The diverse opinions expressed in this thread show that there are many different views on this matter, and so I don’t think it’s as simple as you say.
I’ve found that a gentle push helps them down the steps fairly quickly.
Yes, it *is *that simple.
When she declined your help the first time, that meant she didn’t want it. Had she desired it later, she would have asked for it, or at least made some sort of visible indication of distress. From what you’ve said here, nothing changed between offer the first and offer the second.
“The race is not always to the swift nor the battle to the strong, but that’s the way to bet”
Once she says no, the safe way to bet is that she doesn’t want your help. If you have a problem internalizing this then yes, I think you’re condescending towards women.
Welcome to the world of human interactions. There are no absolutes. Why do you feel you need an automatic guarantee that when someone says they don’t want your help they wouldn’t appreciate it later on? Would there be some problem just trusting a woman means what she says? You keep alluding to the damned if you don’t scenario but I’ve yet to discern it.
I agree with what others have said–if you ask once and she declines, the ball is in her court (not yours) regarding additional help. Regardless of whether you should have offered in the first place, offering more than once seems to me to be rather annoying. At that point, it’s up to her to indicate whether additional help would be welcome and/or desirable.
I don’t. I don’t expect that they WILL need the help later on. Rather, I’m pointing out that my female co-worker objected to the notion that turning down help once means that help will not be appreciated the next time around, especially when navigating different terrain.
Actually, I just remembered that two of my co-workers made that comment. One of them was a lot more emphatic about it, though.
It **is **that simple. You’re making a mountain out of a molehill. If she says no, she says no. If she really means yes, then the onus is now on *her *to come to you for help. Continuing to badger her makes you look like a misogynistic ass who won’t take no for an answer. You are under no obligation to continually ask if she needs help and what would you do if you keep asking she keeps saying no? The 3rd, 4th, 5th time… What would it take for you to actually listen to what she is saying instead of what you *think *she should be saying?
Why is it so important to you that the co-worker was female?
I agree that badgering would excessive. We’re not talking about asking over and over and over again, though. I think there’s a reasonable middle ground between saying “Offer once and no more than that” and “Keep asking over and over until the person gives in.”
I’m seeing a disconnect between the people here and the people that I ask in the real world. My real world co-workers and friends say that it’s best to err on the side of caution. I’m sure they’d agree that badgering someone into accepting would be poor form, but they also emphasize (practically to a person) that circumstances can change from one offer to the other.
I just asked another female co-worker (the third one so far), and she said pretty much the same thing – that the situation can change from one to the other. Again, I’m sure she wouldn’t say that one should keep on asking and asking and asking. She simply means that the “once and no more” rule is needlessly harsh in her judgment.
Again, YMMV.
For reasons that other posters have already pointed out earlier in this thread. That and the fact that men and women can tend to have different reactions in situations like this.