Being a classy gentleman, complete with manners from a bygone —and apparently best-forgotten— era, is soooo fucking yesterday, dude. Why not just wear a flashing sign saying, “My mama raised me right.” I bet you even take your hat off when you go indoors.*
*NOTE TO THE LITERAL-MINDED: It’s sarcasm.
That’s my crowd, too. My fashion forward young women just seem more surefooted than yours for some reason.
This winter I was helping a woman in stiletto boots get her car out of an icy driveway. It was an awful awful drive way - the owner hadn`t bothered to clean it at all and there was a good 2 inches of ice covering it. We actually helped each other stand up quite a bit - it was that slippery. But if anything, she managed better than I did, digging her heel into the ice.
I’m not saying I never help women. I help women when they’re having trouble and might need help. I help men when they’re having trouble and might need it. My dad has had severe balance problems for many years so I’m willing to consider that maybe I’m more attuned to whether people need a hand or not, but frankly I think it’s a pretty basic skill.
There’s a big difference between helping someone because they look a bit unsteady or unsure of how to navigate and helping them because they’re a woman. And I would never offer a second time to help someone who politely refused my first offer.
IANAWoman, but I can safely say that this is why my wife would give thanks. She would never tell you, JThunder (because it would be rude), but by pulling her chair out for her you have just embarrassed the shit out of her. She doesn’t want to be embarrassed, but it can be really weird to be unnecessarily singled out and offered “help” because of your gender.
Speaking for myself, I find the whole chair pulling thing really squicky. (Unless there are big poofy wedding skirts involved or something else which makes sitting difficult).
Newsflash: it was a joke. Don’t be so literal.
To the OP, what is my opinion on the issue? That the woman was a bitch. Maybe it’s just the women that I know, but I can’t think of one that would act like that in response to such a gesture, even though the vast majority of them are young, energetic, forward-thinking, able-bodied, modern and capable. They’re also polite, and a simple “no thanks, I’m fine” is the appropriate response.
I think the OP did a nice thing. As a person who takes the bus regularly, since the bus is higher than a normal staircase step, I appreciate it when the bus driver lowers the bus so that it’s easier to get off and on even though I usually wear slacks and flat shoes.
I don’t think any thoughtful/kind/helpful gesture should be rewarded with a curt comment. If the gesture is unwelcome, a gentle “No, thank you” can be issued, even if it has to be issued twice. Most especially to a friend when you know he is just being nice.
Personally, I appreciate such geatures from and expect them from my SO. I always thank him. And I offer them to those who might need them; men and women.
Wow? Only “prickly”? Women usually get much more abuse when they indicate that “chivalrous” gestures aren’t necessary. Color me surprised.
Her refusal was worded rudely, yes. It wouldn’t be necessary to rebuff someone like that unless their way of offering help was overly aggressive or rude itself.
Welcome to the world of human interactions. Whether we like it or not, the reasons why people do these things ARE very complex. If this thread is any indication, there are a great many opinions on this topic, some of which are diametrically opposite. If anything, this thread tells me that there is tremendous disagreement on this issue, and that puts men in an untenable situation.
In other words, it’s one of those situations where a man just can’t win. We all know the feeling.
BTW, at no point did I say that my way is “the right way.” What I did say is that it’s not as simple as saying “Offer once, but not the second time” or “Only offer help to old ladies and fat people.” Others have already explained why these solutions aren’t adequate, so I hope I don’t have to go over those again.
Again, I think that’s a tremendously unfair accusation. As the OP, I’ve naturally have an opinion, and I’ve put a good amount of thought into it. That is not the same as insisting that anybody who disagrees with me is absolutely wrong. Or do you disagree with me on that matter?
Couple that with the fact that other people were confused about whether the women in question were strangers or not, whether they were young or old, whether they were healthy or infirm, and you will naturally get more clarification on that issue.
Your insinuation is another example of how men can be placed in a no-win situation. Should one explain why feels a certain way on matters that involve diverse opinions, varied circumstances, and vague human interactions? Then one risks being told “You don’t care what other people think!” Should one simply refrain from presenting these views or addressing points that others raise? Then you risk further confusion and are effectively disallowed from presenting your side. There’s just no way to win when people respond in that manner.
I dont see why women should have to put up with people repeatedly offering to assist with their personal conveyance. Luckily I'm a man so nobody ever offers to help me traverse steps. I dont even know how I would react if someone did. I can’t imagine declining the offer a second time without making it more clear I never want help with steps. Why can`t a woman do the same thing without being labeled prickly?
I certainly would even bother trying to enlighten the other person about the inference they might have drawn from my first refusal. I’d say “No, sorry. I’ve got ALL the steps covered.”
Try this from a woman’s point of view. She has to respond to strangers and acquaintances alike who feel that because of her gender they need to assist her. She needs no assistance, and feels demeaned by the assumption. Now she has to be polite and accept an unneeded offer, slowing down the queue of people getting down the stairs and making her feel embarrassed, or reject the offer and risk being called catty or ungrateful. It’s a no win situation for her.
Chivalry is nice. Unneeded chivalry can be demeaning and embarrassing. There was a thread recently about men needing to let women on the elevator first and off first, slowing down the whole operation for no apparent reason. Many (most?) women felt it was a vestige of the past that clearly was unproductive, inefficient, and generally insulting.
If someone, anyone, needs help you offer it. If they say they don’t want your help you don’t offer it again. Should you offer it before you know their feelings? That’s a tougher one, and usually a judgment call, but it seems like always offering it when you know that some women don’t appreciate it is a recipe for disaster. What was once chivalry can today be interpreted poorly. It pays to understand the feelings of the intended recipient of your actions and not simply assume that it’s welcome.
But how do you know that they don’t want your help the second time, as opposed to merely declining it the first time? The two aren’t the same thing, especially if you’re not traversing the same exact set of steps. As I said, it requires making assumptions, and that can get you in trouble.
Like I said, it’s a no win situation. If you assume that the gesture would be unwelcome, you risk being labelled as ungentlemanly. If you play it safe and offer help just in case, then you risk incurring their ire. And if you offer help to some women, but not to others, you risk being labelled a lout.
Obviously, there are extreme situations on both sides. Few of us would feel obligated to help someone who’s healthy, dressed in jeans, and walking down a standard office building staircase. Similarly, most people would understand the need to help an elderly person down the steps. Many other situations are not so clear cut though, and that’s why I think it’s overly simplistic to say that we should only offer the help if you know that it would be welcome.
Well, look at your responses in this thread. The first woman to say she wouldn’t like you doing that because you’re equals got a “well, that’s your opinion” followed up further explanation of how much every woman you know just eats it up with a spoon, though you suppose there are some few cranks who would be mortally offended by it. The whole excluded-middle thing, you know. It never paints anybody in the most reasonable and honestly curious light.
Of the women who have outlined in depth their reasons for not liking such things and the very limited situations they wouldn’t find it annoying or belittling to be singled out for help, your only response is that you suppose men could spend .02 seconds thinking about what a particular person might like, but that would be a dreadful lot of work and it might make him look bad to other people, so it’s really best that we just go with your preference. Because we must err on the side of caution, to not offend women by not doing something nobody expects in the first place and risk offending women by trying to do something nobody expects and a fair few of them really, really don’t want.
And the only woman you’ve said has a good point is one who gives you another reason that it might, in some cases, be helpful to do what you want to do anyhow. It’s amazing how the responses that back you up have a good point and the rest are not really worth dealing with…totally human reaction, but again it doesn’t really paint you as arguing in good faith.
Finally, you’ve totally ignored every part of my post except for the last part. Never mind my actual opinion on the subject at hand or my reasons for that opinion. The only part you’ve bothered to acknowledge is the perceived personal insult.
Do you see where someone could look at the thread and draw the conclusion I did?
CrazyCatLady, I will disagree with some of the evaluations here, just as you disagree with me on these points. That is not the same as saying that every single person here needs to think the same way that I do on this matter. Rather, I’m pointing out that this is a no-win situation for men, so please cut them some slack.
It’s also unfair to insist that I’m saying that “men could spend .02 seconds thinking about what a particular person might like, but that would be a dreadful lot of work and it might make him look bad to other people.” It’s not a question of being a “dreadful amount of work.” It’s not question of spending more than 0.2 seconds. Rather, it’s a question of having too many variables to consider, not the least of which are the individual temperaments and preferences of the women in question. Most men would probably have no idea whether a particular pair of women’s shoes are comfortable or not, for example, so there’s simply no satisfying everyone.
And whether you like it or not, I think it IS true that it looks bad when a man offers help to some women, but not to others. Obviously, there is a middle ground – for example, when the staircase is not difficult, one might only choose to help people who are more infirm. In other circumstances though, it does make the man look like he’s being selective.
FTR, I have learned a lot from people’s responses here. While I did expect some people to insist that such gestures are unnecessary, I was enlightened by the strength of these responses. I also feel that some of these comments have been helpful, such as the suggestion that one can figure out which women might need help after multiple incidents.
You’re reading your own exaggerations into my responses, and that’s simply unfair.
I would draw the conclusion that the OP disagreed with certain things, and I do. I would never draw the conclusion that the OP insisted that everyone who disagreed with him was automatically wrong or was arguing without merit. As I said, it’s a conclusion that’s fundamentally unfair.
You can, of course, disagree on that matter if you wish.
I assume if they want help they’ll ask for it. You’re hung up on being gentlemanly and ignoring that the very actions you take are ungentlemanly to others. Offering unsolicited help is never a sure thing. If you keep on doing that you have to plan on receiving some (well deserved, IMO) guff in return.
Not in my experience. IMO, you’re putting way too much emphasis on this part of things. Try offering to help when it’s obvious someone needs it or if someone asks for help. Or, get to know the person and act according to their wishes. Or simply ask if they’d like a hand and listen to their wishes. What’s more important; to be considered a gentleman or to help people who need help?
Perhaps, and I think that’s a valid point.
Therein lies part of the darned-if-you-do-darned-if-you-don’t problem. You don’t always get to know whether someone needs or appreciates help or not, and it’s not always obvious if they do. One could insist on only offering help when it’s obvious, but that can get you in trouble as well.
Case in point: I had lunch at a nearby university one day and I was once in a rush to get back to work, so I dashed out the door. The woman behind me yelled, “Thanks for not holding the door open for me!” Now, she wasn’t carrying anything, and she certainly didn’t look infirm in any way… yet there was this perception that I was being rude because I didn’t hold that door open.
As others have said, people’s reactions will be diverse in these situations. It’d be great if we could all place efficiency above etiquette or people’s expectations. In the real world though, human interactions are often not that simple.
There’s a third option- she could politely reject it.
She did, the first time.
I guess we have very different opinions of what is considered polite behavior.
My impression from this story is that you were perceived as being rude. A man would likely have had the same reaction. If I’m going to walk through a door with people behind me I don’t check their gender, I just hold the door open for them. It’s polite and helps society function. I don’t think anyone has a problem with this.
Would you have felt any different if a man had yelled that behind you? If so, why?