I will accept the door opening, but I open it for men just as much. Pull my chair out? Nah, unless you’re my SO, and he doesn’t even really do that. Help me down stairs? Save it for the old women, I’m not much inclined to be touched unless I feel like it.
I think the woman in the OP wasn’t snarky. Actually, she said it as politely as she could. Women should be encouraged to stand up and say what they feel and not feel obligated to be extra nice all the time.
However I agree with the OP too, that it would have been rude to exclude her without specifically being told to. To me, this encounter went the best way it could - OP offered, girl politely declined and explained, and everybody moved on.
I think it’s a bit presumptuous of her to assume that, in a group of people, some of whom gratefully accepted a hand and others didn’t, the OP would remember which she was.
Have you seen the shoes that are fashionable these days? Even assuming everyone was sensible enough not to wear those, stuff like thisand thismake stepping down steps tricky, even with good knees.
Whether or not she wanted help, she was rude. Commenting on someone else’s “rudeness” (real or perceived) to their face is rude. (Of course, so is doing it behind their back. I’m not sure where doing it on a message board falls on the etiquette scale.) “No, thank you” each time she was offered a hand is quicker and more polite than a lecture.
…and I’d add to that, skirts. I wear sensible shoes, but also long hippie skirts. Those are long enough to need at least one hand gathering them up before I go up stairs (and also down, if someone else is behind me and might step on the back). I appreciate the offer of a hand on my elbow or free hand, since I’ve set myself off balance by the posture required to attend to my skirt.
I may not *need *assistance, but the offer of it is never disdained, only perhaps declined.
Well, you’re entitled to your opinion. I can tell you that a friend and I routinely pull out chairs for the ladies in our group when we’re at a restaurant. Almost invariably, their response is to say “Wow! I wish more men were like you!”
I’m not saying that every woman would react the same way. I’m sure that some would perceive this as a grievous insult. Still, IME at least, the majority tend to appreciate this gesture.
I suppose that men could prepare a mental checklist. “Is she wearing a skirt? What kind of shoes is she wearing? How steep are these steps? How old is she? How tall is she? How muscular is she? Does she have a good sense of balance? Did she previously decline?” and so forth. However, that strikes me as demanding way too much in order to avoid offense. I woudl rather err on the side of gallantry than analyze these situations in such detail – especially since some women are bound to respond by saying, “What the…? Why did he offer help to that woman, but not to me?”
People have to realize that these gestures are not meant as insults. They’re not meant to imply that the woman (or the man, for that matter) is somehow physically inadequate. Oftentimes, they are simply polite gestures, and that one must often err on the side of caution.
Now, I wouldn’t recommend helping a woman down stairs in every situation. I certainly would not do so when traversing the stairwells in our office building, for example. In other situations though, such as negotiating the final step off or a high vehicle (certain buses, for example), I think it’s simply prudent to be cautious.
Not many do anymore. I think that’s why women express such appreciation when it does happen. I pulled a chair out for a distant acquaintance at a wedding reception this weekend, and the ladies at the table said, “Wow. You’re being a gentleman!”
Personally, I think that such praise is an overstatement, but the point remains that women tend to appreciate the gesture. Again, in my personal experience.
Sometimes on particularly tall steps, or when coming out of a van or something with not a lot of head clearance, if I’m wearing a skirt a hand down helps to keep me from flashing the great outdoors, and I appreciate it. I decline if I’m in jeans and sneakers.
However, the person offering is usually the tour bus driver. Likewise, my chair is often pulled out for me… by a waiter.
I think you were being polite, and she was not. If she didn’t want help, she was free to decline, but she didn’t need to lecture you in the process. It’s not her place to instruct you in what she believes the finer points of etiquette to be.
This kind of stuff really chaps my ass. I’m a 37 year old woman in good health, with my own opinions and my own career. Having said that, it would never occur to me to be offended or rude because a man offered me help in this situation, or opened a door for me, or any of the other “antiquated” politenesses that men still occasionally perform today. If I was wearing heels or a skirt, I would probably have accepted. If I wasn’t, I wouldn’t have. But I wouldn’t get indignant about it.
It tells me a lot about a person who gets huffy about this sort of thing.
I’m going to have to agree with the OP that he did nothing wrong. The woman’s reaction is somewhat mitigated by the fact that she and **JThunder **are friends, but it doesn’t excuse calling a person out in public when they are going out of their way to do something polite.
I chalk this up under the same category as non-Christians who get offended when someone wishes them a merry Christmas. The sentiment is one of generosity and helpfulness. Even if it ain’t your particular thing, replying to a kindness with rudeness is always rude.
Most of the women I hang out with would laugh in your face because they would think you were joking. Seriously, most of the adult women I know have no problems negotiating stairs.
The main vibe I get from your posting is that you offer your services to the general class of women, but aren’t dealing with them as individuals.
Same here. I’m a notoriously clumsy, small-for-my-demographic female, and I appreciate a helping hand when I’m visibly unsteady. If I’m dressed in cargo shorts and a t-shirt and managing fine on my own, I sometimes bristle inside, but I remember the times I do need help and decline politely. I can think of so many times that I’ve wobbled, tripped or fumbled with my things and would’ve really appreciated an extra hand or two–even though I’m usually a horribly stubborn and prideful person.
I think it’s kind of you to offer, JThunder. Just be aware of whether someone visibly needs a hand and try to gauge how they’d react, I guess?
Well, of course women express appreciation for having the chair pulled out for them, for the same reason you express appreciation for the garish, itchy, three-sizes-too-big sweater Great Aunt Martha knitted you for Christmas–because it’s the polite thing to do when someone goes to extra effort on your behalf, whether you particularly like it or not.
And to be honest, I don’t particularly like it when people want to do shit like that just because I gots boobies and innie bits. Opening doors is one thing–most people who would hold the door for me would be just as likely to hold it for a guy. Stuff that you wouldn’t do for a guy without extenuating circumstances are something else entirely. If you wouldn’t do it for my husband, I’d really prefer that you not do it for me, thank you so much for the (somewhat chauvanistic) thought.
If there’s some sort of extenuating circumstance, like me having my hands full, or looking unsteady on my feet, or the footing being particularly bad for the shoes I’m wearing, offer away as I assume you’d also offer assistance to a man of similar age with the same circumstances. (If you wouldn’t offer the guy help, shame on you.)
I have to notice, however, that you seem to have an awful lot of explanations why women should understand that your way is the right way. It rather makes me think you’re not interested in what women who disagree with you think.
I think some of the women in this thread are a little bit unnecessarily prickly. =/
All these various customs of “politeness” evolved from a time period when, in fact, they -were- helpful because the women in question were probably wearing something ridiculous. Now that women are more likely to be wearing more sensible clothing, they are old fashioned, but the origins aren’t rooted in any sort of innate sense of superiority. People were taught to do these things because they were helpful, and even if they’ve outlived their helpfulness, that doesn’t make them insulting.
Very possible. I live in Chicago, around a lot of very fashion forward young women with horrible shoes and ginormous handbags on one shoulder. We’ve got lots of sidewalk grates, broken curbs, buses with steep steps and slippery, worn concrete steps up to the El. I’ve seen more than my fair share of pratfalls, and women are overrepresented in those numbers. (Of course, no one wants to touch the urine soaked railing.)
The first time, OK. But when the offer is presented and politely refused, as in the OP, why offer it again? That could be considered insulting. At some point, it goes beyond being helpful.
Personally, I would find it extremely condescending if some guy offered to help me down stairs, pulled out my chair for me, or opened a door in an obvious “Oh! You’re a woman! I must be chivalrous!” way (though I always open doors for other people when it’s appropriate and am grateful when others do the same for me, regardless of gender).
I remember even as a kid I used to get annoyed at Disneyland when the guides would try to help me on and off the Jungle Cruise boat, right about the time I noticed that they did it only for girls and women, but not for boys and men (except old or disabled men).
I readily admit I’m not the typical woman, though. I would never get snotty or annoyed at someone for doing these things, but I might smile politely and say, “I’m fine, thanks.” Particularly with the helping down stairs thing, I really prefer not to be touched by strangers for things like this. If I need help or am having trouble, I will certainly not hesitate to ask–but please don’t insist.
I’m not saying that I think there’s anything wrong with guys who like to be chivalrous or women who appreciate it. For those who do, it’s a nice gesture. For me, not so much. My challenge is finding a way to communicate this without being rude, because that is in no way my intention. I usually figure that the jeans, big athletic shoes, and hoodie might be an indicator that I’m not the most feminine of souls.
