Hey assholes, how about you stop poking Evil Captor with a stick?

The BBQ Pit
141

lissener, your insistence that bondage=misogyny is insulting to me, my boyfriend, and pretty much everyone else who enjoys bondage, and as this is the pit, I’m free to say that I’d like to kick you in the teeth, grab a mallet, and physically pound a clue into your head. So, lissener, as I sometimes like to be tied up by my boyfriend and sometimes like to tie him up, and as he sometimes enjoys tying me up and sometimes enjoys being tied up, does that make us equal opportunity misogynists and misandrists, or just people who like to have a good time in our own way? Have you considered that the person tied up is likely to be receiving a lot more pleasure than they’re giving, since they’re, ya know, immobilized and all? There’s a lot more that you can do to someone who’s tied up than they can do to you.

Moreover, your premise that BDSM is “the sexualization of humiliation and violence” is 1) ass-backwards, as far as I’m concerned and 2) idiotic. 1) BDSM is bringing intense physical, mental, and emotional sensations to sex, NOT the other way 'round. 2) And are you telling me that you’ve nevered enjoyed something fictional - a James Bond movie, for instance - that you would find horrifying in real life? BDSM isn’t about actual torture or actual anything, it’s all about fantasy and pretend. My submissive side exists entirely in the bedroom between my boyfriend and me, and nowhere else. I don’t even enjoy erotica or porn that includes female submission. The real me is ferociously independent and dominant, but fer chrissakes, it’s nice to take a break once in a while.

142

Thanks, too, for assuming I speak out of ignorance, and thanks for mischaracterizing my entire position, top to bottom. I never used the word sick, and I’m not talking about private games played by private people in private bedrooms.

You have no idea of my level ignorance or knowledge on this subject, and I’m not willing to have this thread be a referendum on that. Since this bandwagon of assumption that I’d suddenly see the light if I only thought about it more or read about it more shows no sign of slowing down and is only accumulating more assumptions-as-fact as it goes, I think I’m gonna hop off.

143

Where do you get this from? Seriously, from his posts, I know that EC likes to tie chicks up. How is that objectifying?

I can’t believe I’m about to yoke myself with this…

I’ve been tied up before. It was kind of fun. I wasn’t objectified. I didn’t think the person I was with was a misogynist. Further, there was no 'rape fantasy" involved. It was really just an excuse to be lazy and not have to do to much work, if you know what I mean. Good times, good times.

Now, it’s possible that I’ve missed a boat-load of ECs posts, but can you show specifically where he’s being a misogynist in a way other than suggesting that having a woman tied up on your bed might make for a fun sort of evening?

I’m not being snarky - I just haven’t noticed the same thing you’re accusing EC of.

144

I have never said that. Please reread.

145

::TWEET::

There are two behaviors here:
[ol]
[li]The private actions of consenting adults in their private bedrooms[/li][li]The unwelcome flashing of emotionally loaded imagery in SDMB threads by Evil Captor[/li][/ol]

One of those is what I’m talking about; the other one is the bandwagon you’re all jumping on.

I am not discussing the ACTUAL PRACTICES of ACTUAL PEOPLE. I am discussing the EMOTIONAL BAGGAGE of EC’s IMAGERY.

TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

146

Thank you for the clarification, which bears repeating. I asked not even so much for myself as for everyone reading, because I felt you were in danger of running into…well, on preview, you have anyway, but I tried. :stuck_out_tongue:

I think the rape stuff, as I said earlier, is different, and I also think the question about the moral quality of fantasies is interesting. I don’t know if I’ll ever settle the question, for myself, but I do know that accusing someone of seeing women as mere arrangements of limbs, breasts, and head on the basis of their fantasies alone is very serious business. I didn’t think that was what you were doing (though you now seem to be claiming it would be enough), but I had to be sure. You seem instead to be basing it on a number of factors - the fantasies themselves, and his way of introducing them where, and the shape of his comments in general.

I can’t judge those things because I just haven’t seen enough of them. I know much more about EC’s politics than his fetishes. I am now satisfied that your process is valid, regardless of whether your conclusions are accurate (just a few bad data can ruin the whole equation; but like I say, I don’t have a dog in that fight).

147

Do I really strike you as someone who would say “the objection is ‘and therefore you should not do that’”? Do I really have to stop to engage this strawman?

And again, I’m not objecting to the act of tying up a consenting person. I have never objected to that.

And what do YOU think the difference is between “an anus” and “a rape fantasy” is? Maybe that one’s a morally neutral object, and one’s a thought, an idea, whose moral neutrality is certainly debatable, and of different moral values to different people.

I’m not saying the ACT of tying someone up is immoral, if they’re into it. I’m saying that the idea BEHIND it, is, INARGUABLY, FACTUALLY, based on images/practices/memories/whatever of a situation that is predicated on imbalance of power and theft of control. NOT IN ACTUALITY, only IN CONCEPT. I’m only saying that, in my PERSONAL philosophy, those ideas are not morally neutral. In yours they are. Fine, I understand that. I don’t get it, but I understand it to be true.

I’m not saying that a rape is the same as a fantasy of rape. I’m saying–and I don’t think anyone would disagree with me–that rape–actual rape–is immoral. And i’m further saying that, IN MY PERSONAL PHILOSOPHY, fantasies based on an immoral act are not morally neutral. I fully understand that some people can indulge in such fantasies without doing emotional “harm” to themselves, but I also understand that others cannot. I understand that this is a highly individual matter.

To make a central point clear: I don’t think acting out BDSM between consenting adults is harmful to the other person. I’m not objecting to EC’s tying up a woman as a defender of that woman. That seems to be the misconception here. I’m fully on board with whatever consenting adults want to do. I object, insofar as I object–only philosphically, you understand–because I believe that it is harmful to EC to do so. I’m not suggesting that be legislated, or that he should stop, I’m just trying to explain my philosophy. I think that any “harm” that accrues from fantasies accrue to the fantasist, not to their partner. I’m not trying to protect EC from himself, or anything like that. I’m just trying to explain my PERSONAL issues with fantasies of humiliation and rape.

How far afield has this hijack gone? Why do I have to prove the philosophical basis of my objection before the simple proposition that “EC is being impolite” is accepted as valid?

148

Again, to be sure I’m clear. I have never suggested a judgement of what you and your boyfriend do to each other in private.

There is no question that actual rape is a violent manifestation of misogyny. You can’t get much more tautological than “rape = misogyny.” The ACT of rape is a different thing from the ACT of you and your boyfriend pretending rape. (And though there are degrees, restraint is quite obviously “about” rape: consensual restraint = pretending there is no consent; pretending there is a loss of control; pretending there is a rape, even if the act itself is gentle and nonviolent: the restraint itself is the only parallel I’m drawing.)

Therefore, I am NOT saying your bedroom games = rape.

Look. Some parents object to toy guns. Do they think those guns actually might kill someone? no. Do they even think that kids who play with toy guns are likely to grow up to use real guns? No. They simply think that games based on violence are not good for their children. My philosophy of rape fantasies is kind of parallel to that. Would I take your gun away from you? No. But do I think that games based on imagery of violence are “not good for you?” Yes, I do. Whether children’s games or sex games, yes, I do.

149

No, you certainly do not, and I didn’t mean it as a strawman - except possibly for myself, but I was lining up the only possible arguments I saw and taking them down as I thought appropriate.

You object specifically and only to his rape fantasies, then, and not his bondage fantasies?

Look, lots and lots of people do think that how one uses the anus is a subject legitimate for moral debate. You and I know better. You think “a fantasy” is inherently imbued with moral significance. Others feel that they know better.

Well, what you are saying is wrong. “Theft” of control is simply not part of every or even most BDSM scenarios. I know someone who is a consent fetishist. For him, it’s not the illusion that he’s stolen power, but the thrill of being given it freely. This is what bondage evokes for many, many people who practice it. Your inarguable, factual fact just isn’t. Yes, some of the images and tropes come from that kind of fiction. But it’s just far too general a treatment of the subject, too narrowly focused.

Your turn to raise the strawman, perhaps? Of course you aren’t.

Noted and understood.

Some of this strikes me as sort of contradictory, but again, noted and understood.

Eh, it’s a conversation, it branches. Besides, I’m pretty sure everybody else quit reading a page and a half ago. :wink:

You don’t have to prove it as valid. I probably came off more arrogant than I felt. I do think I’m free to comment on it if you put it out there, though.

150

Oh, boy, now I’m being accused of “imagery.” Is there no depth so vile that I will not sink to it?

151

Um, what rape fantasies? I wasn’t aware that it was an interest of mine …

152

You also have WMD’s. Bastard.

153

If this is the level you’re discussing this on at this point, you’ll understand if I skip your contributions from here forward.

154

An example of inappropriate imagery from Evil Captor in a recent thread in Great Debates:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7012775

The thread was on the left leaning politics of Hollywood, and in post #18 Evil Captor mentions (among others) a porn star who campaigned there. IMO, he also DID NOT have to mention:

There aren’t as many recent examples of this kind of interjection by him since the pittings, but it is typical, IMO, of his habit of just skirting the line of appropriateness with talk of his sexual fantasies. I’m not even sure if it’s a report tihs post offense, but I’ll get to that in a moment.

I really had no intention of wading into this, but before I wade back out and go back to lurking, I would like to say two things.

First, it’s disingenous to say it is or ever was just about bondage. The original pit thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=345230) inkleberry specifically emphasized

Secondly, I think there might be a good number of others such as myself who don’t choose to wade into these pittings and take a stand, but who do think that he is acting inappropriately in his off-topic sexual themed posts. On behalf of those of us who have been caught unaware and squicked, could we have a mod weigh in on whether posts such as the example above (by Evil Captor) do constitute a violation that should be reported?

Thanks in advance.

155

There’s no way that I can address this without repeating myself, word for word, from this very thread. And there’s no way you can defend it without diverting into some arcane argument of semantics where you now want to either redefine “rape” or “fantasies,” or to deny everything you’ve ever said on the subject in these forums.

My “not letting things go” is usually based on a sense that, if someone is willing to continue a discussion in good faith, I owe them the respect of not abandoning the dicussion. I’m rapidly losing that sense here; I feel a letting go coming on.

The other reason I’m sometimes reluctant to let things go is that some people feel they can “win” an argument with nothing more than a bullying ignorance (CandidGamera comes to mind), and I feel that to concede the field before I’ve exhausted all avenues rewards such behavior. Until the effort exhausts me, and I let the bully win. I feel exhaustion creeping up.

156

I’m still not making myself clear. I have many times drawn a distinction between the act of consenting adults and the fantasies they might be based on. I have not said that consenting bondage is *actual *theft of control. I’m only saying it’s BASED on a FANTASY of theft of control. In a consenting bondage scene, you CHOOSE to be put into a position where you can PRETEND to have no choice. THe inherent false paradox makes this confusing.

Many people in this thread have accused me of objecting equally to rape and to fantasies of rape. I was drawing a distinction. Again.

157

Post # 12 by you:

Another poster pointed out that the girl seemed bored rather than violated by the sexual encounter, which makes me wonder why you saw it as “brutality”.

158

FWIW, that was actually the first time the thought occurred to me that EC looked at the world through “porn colored glasses.” Trust EC, I thought, to find a porn connection to just about any subject you can name. And trust him to thrust as explicit an image as he can muster right into the middle of your brain, without any warning.

See why some of us think of you as a thread flasher, EC? It’s hard not to imagine you get some kind of kick out of this kind of guerilla exhibitionism. I think you justify it to yourself by thinking that you’ve created a moment–boo!–in which you are the morally superior libertine, in contrast to all the repressed prudes you’ve just squicked.

159

I know you are. I’ll restate it so you know it’s true: you know it’s a game, but you think it’s a psychologically dangerous game to play. Yes? I’m saying that is not an accurate depiction. It’s NOT ACTUALLY ABOUT (if I can borrow your caps a moment) FANTASY OF THEFT OF CONTROL. That is just not the fantasy many people are having. Instead, they’re actually enjoying what they’re experiencing. They’re not pretending it’s anything else. There’s no game. It’s a gift freely exchanged and that is what draws many of us, not some sordid playacting.

Okay. I didn’t notice, I’m sorry. Those people are clearly incorrect.

160

Whether it’s sordid or not is of course subjective, and was not my point.

Maybe I’m too much of a postmodernist to believe that someone engaged in such an act can totally divorce the restraints from all the cultural baggage attached to pretended-non-consent. I’m certainly willing to concede (I have conceded before this) that such activities are not necessarily “harmful” to all individuals.

What I’m saying, at base, is that for some people, such fantasies and/or activities might be psychologically harmful. This was all in response to EC’s insistance that the only possible reason for objecting to BDSM imagery is repression; I was simply trying to make the case that that was utter nonsense, and insultingly, ignorantly, dismissive.

In my “philosophy,” playing games in the bedroom with someone you love is FAR less psychologically, well, questionable, for want of a better word, than a near total immersion in a fantasy world of such imagery. One of the rare instances in which imagery/language can do more harm than action. Although the imagery, in this instance, is unrelated to the action: EC’s near total immersion in his porn/rape-fantasy universe has nothing whatsoever to do with the private games of individual dopers. It’s only when he imagines that we all inhabit the same universe he’s constructed for himself–see AveDementia’s documentation–that it becomes objectionable to me personally.