Hi, old friend! In town 1st time in 10 years! Love to see you but I'll have to lie to my husband..

In My Humble Opinion
21

I kinda came to understand this cultural attitude when I watched an episode of 30 Days where a devout Christian has to live as a Muslim in a highly Muslim-concentrated area. The Muslim husband of the host family, a pediatrician, pulled him aside one morning and was like

“I have to tell you something.”
“What is it?”
“Don’t get offended or anything. It’s not personal.”
“OK…what?:confused:”
“I’m headed to work right now, so you have to leave. You can’t be in the house while I’m gone.”
“Huh? Why?”
“Well, because my wife will be home and in Muslim societies, a woman should not be alone with a strange man.”
“But I’m not going to do anything…”
“I know, I know, but if someone were to see you here, they might think something inappropriate was going on.”

And they bantered back and forth about it. The Christian was basically arguing that they shouldn’t assume anything untoward was happening, but the Muslim kept saying that since Muslim men don’t stay with women alone, that if a man did stay with a strange woman, then it does look like there’s some hanky panky going on.

At that point, I kinda likened it to seeing a guy slipping into the window of your neighbor’s house late at night. Sure, it’s a valid way to enter a house. It could very well be normal. But it’s not normal to enter that way. So it’s justified for me to think he’s a thief.

Yes, it’s circular. Yes, it’s arbitrary. But those standards exist in so many societies in so many ways, including our own. It seems clear to me that the Taiwanese husband doesn’t think women should meet strange men alone. Why? Because…other Taiwanese don’t think women should meet strange men alone. So for a wife to violate that standard of behavior means that something bad is going on.
I remember an incident in Iraq where a patrol picked up a guy on the street just after a fire fight. Normally, when a shootout goes down, everyone scatters inside the closest building. This guy’s story was that he ran into someone’s house to escape the fire, but he saw that he was the only man in the house, alone with a teenage daughter, so he left. That’s why he was on the street. The lesson: It’s such a serious thing that this guy would rather run into a firefight than get caught alone with a woman.

Strange to us, but hey, who are you to judge?

22

I’m going to ask for a cite here. The whole Taiwanese husband thing – is that just speculation or is there actual evidence or at least personal anecdotes? I grew up in Taiwan and I wouldn’t altogether rule out that sort of behavior, but it nonetheless seems excessively controlling. I would more attribute it to the insecurity of an individual than any broader cultural thing.

Granted, I was a kid most of that time, but you’d think I’d have at least heard of this cultural prohibition in passing if it existed. My Taiwanese mother went out with her guy friends all the time… but then I suppose she was having at least one affair and the marriage was just for show anyway, so…

23

And to the OP: Can’t you just call up the mysterious friend and ask her why the need for cloak and daggers? If she doesn’t give you a good reason, explain why you feel uncomfortable.

24

Well, that’s kind of the odd thing, from my perspective. When she called me from the US, we were indeed talking about our families getting together and she was talking about how great our kids would get along. But now that she’s here, she’s saying “he’s watching me like a hawk, I’ll have to slip out the back, Jack.” I don’t know if it would be a good idea to call her on her cell phone if they’re all living together in close quarters with that kind of tension. Also, it sounds like her husband’s a bit of a jerk and I probably don’t want to meet him anyway.

Taiwan culture isn’t really like that, as far as I’ve ever been able to tell. There are guys who are super-sensitive about their “face,” but this kind of thing isn’t the paramount concern (from what I can see).

No, not at all. The most that ever happened was I started to put my arm around her when we were watching a movie, and she was, “uh, nah, let’s not go there.” We were a lot like in When Harry Met Sally in the first half of the movie. We even had a moment very similar to when Sally called Harry crying after she found out her ex husband was getting married, the difference being that when I asked if she’d like me to come over, she said I’d better not, she was feeling too vulnerable and who knows what might happen. So we left it at that.

That does make a bit of sense, though it’s still surprising. The thing that’s gotten me in trouble with Taiwanese females once or twice in the past was that I thought I was being great buddies with some girl, meeting for lunch or chatting in the office, and then one day without warning she’d turn super cold toward me and give me a clear feeling that she never wanted to talk to me again. Huh? Nothing happened! But maybe that was the point: When I would tell my wife about it later, she’d say “don’t you realize she thinks you were leading her on?” Eh, women . . .

25

Sounds like she mentioned you vaguely to gauge his reaction and he went nuts – to the point where if your families got together he’d assume you two were going to slip off together. What a nice way to live.

26

I’m gonna have to say that it just doesn’t seem worth it to me. Regardless of how platonic you and she know you are, mixed-gender friendships become problems with you marry other people. Stupid, but true. I gave up a good female friend when I got married because my wife (for some reason) didn’t like her. It hurt, but it was either that or listen to my wife complain and make her upset. I took the path of least resistance and I don’t regret it.

27

Well, you’ve watched “When Harry Met Sally,” Koxinga - maybe your old friend’s husband has too. :slight_smile:

(The part about how men and women can’t be friends without sex getting in the way, I mean.)

She might be married to a controlling jerk, and she might also just have a marriage where she and her husband both enjoy the drama of playing these kinds of games. Either way, I wouldn’t sneak around with her. Next time you talk to her, you could mention that her husband sounds a little controlling, and see what her response is.

28

I almost agree with this; it is difficult to have mixed-gender friendships once you marry, if anyone involved has difficulty recognizing boundaries or isn’t a friend of the marriage (someone who unconditionally supports your marriage). Your wife’s “some reason” could be that she sees some flirting that you don’t, or something like that. Men don’t always read women the same way other women do.

ETA: I forgot to say, I’m a supporter of the idea of don’t open doors or go down paths that go somewhere you don’t want to end up. It’s easier to put the brakes on earlier than later.

29

Different from the ones she is sleeping with when she lies to her husband and sneaks around?

30

Hogwash. Both my wife and I have several friends each of the opposite sex, some married now some not, and it’s never been an issue to go out unchaperoned.

In fact, don’t know anyone who’s married who has such issues.

31

No idea: that was one of the things that gave me a weird vibe about the whole thing.

I rather doubt it, though. There was a time when I would have said absolutely not :mad:, I know this lady and she would never do that kind of thing – except apparently I don’t know her as well as I thought I did, 'cause I never would have expected the situation described in my OP either.

32

I’m gonna go against the tide here. People are already psychoanalyzing the husband as some nut or control freak, and ascribing it to cultural stereotypes and whatnot. But no one here knows any of that. Maybe they just recently had some issue with a past boyfriend of hers and the husband is in some hyper-vigilant mode. Maybe she’s overstating the situation for her own internal reasons. Maybe the husband really is controlling but he’s a super awesome husband in every other way so she’s happy to put up with it.

If you want to see her and catch up with her, go see her, and let her deal with any issues on her side, and don’t trouble yourself with them by imagining some kind of twisted drama you are creating by meeting her for lunch. Hell, maybe if she really is in trouble, you can help her thru it again like you have in the past.

This thread is just another example of the typical Doper knee-jerk “some person has exhibited some behavior that I cannot easily explain right away with very little information, so I must end my relationship with them immediately” stance.

33

In my experience, people who are insanely jealous either have guilty consciences OR they know for a fact that their spouse has cheated in the past. I have never known a crazy jealous person who didn’t have a reason to be.

So, maybe he has cheated on her and he has a guilty conscience. Maybe she has cheated on him and he has trust issues. In either case, it would not be healthy for you to get involved.

**The other night, my best friend’s husband was texting my fiance. My best friend didn’t know who he was texting and apparently her history of cheating made her suspicious so she didn’t believe him when he said it was just (my) boyfriend. So she then texted my boyfriend to confirm that it was really him. Meanwhile, we’re both sitting there in the restaurant laughing at them both.

34

I do vaguely remember from years ago, just before she left for the US to marry him, that she said his first wife either had left him or had been cheating on him. I think I remember that, thought I may be conflating with someone else. But one way or another, from what she said back then it seemed like her soon husband-to-be had control issues even then. The whole thing was a bit weird (it comes back to me). Before she went over to marry this guy, it seemed to me as if she was putting on an urgent act of cheerfulness about the whole thing.

The other thing was apparently the guy was fairly rich, or at least well off, while she came from a pretty poor background; and apparently one of the things that sealed the deal for them, so to speak, was that he agreed to pay off all of her substantial credit card debt.

35

Yeah, maybe he’s not that “vigilant” or controlling, but she feels he is because she has to sneak around. Because she is deceiving him. She may or may not be having sexy rendezvous–but she’s definitely lying to her husband.

She said she’d be lying to her husband in order to meet Koxinga. That’s not imagined, and it is twisted somehow, even if those of us making conjectures here don’t know exactly how twisted it is.

36

spark240: “Yeah, maybe he’s not that “vigilant” or controlling, but she feels he is because she has to sneak around. Because she is deceiving him. She may or may not be having sexy rendezvous–but she’s definitely lying to her husband … She said she’d be lying to her husband in order to meet Koxinga. That’s not imagined, and it is twisted somehow, even if those of us making conjectures here don’t know exactly how twisted it is.”

This deception is not necessarily as serious as you make it out to be, italics or no. Koxinga has no untoward intentions. She presumably doesn’t. But her husband doesn’t know this. So quite possibly she just feels it’s easier to tell him that she’s going out with an old female friend rather than a male one. Big deal. Unless you think any lie big or small threatens the very sanctity of their relationship. In that case we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

My point is, right now none of this is really Koxinga’s problem. If he’s still interested in being friends with her, this shouldn’t stop him from meeting her. Unless all this horrible deception just rends his soul, then by all means, he should go ahead and dump her.

37

If you say so. I don’t know the first thing about Taiwanese culture. I’m just guessing that’s it’s not domestic abuse and explaining my views on this “weird” aspect of some cultures. If you say it doesn’t happen in Taiwan, I belive you.

38

Yeah you do, at least when it comes to fellow Dopers. My Mig can’t deal with it. I don’t care for this, but he’s worth the trouble. He’s just convinced all men are out to get laid and can’t be friends with women. I know it’s not true, but then I’ve heard on this very board that it IS true.

And when I ran in to an old school friend I didn’t ever mention it to him because I knew he’d make a stupid big deal out of it. It wasn’t worth it to me to hear about it.

39

IF she is eager to evade / deceive her husband to see you, I suspect she wants more than a simple conversation. I suspect she has regrets about not having more than a friendly relationship with you way back when.

40

If you meet her don’t put your dick in her.

But I suspect that meeting her might cause her and/or you a lot of trouble. Not that she shouldn’t be free to (innocently) talk to an old friend, but something is not right.