I’m okay with it. If I spent time stroking the hair of everyone saying how they’re being pressured or treated poorly, I’d still be at it during the 2020 campaign. At some point people either grow up and think like adults or they don’t.
Which candidate will be more likely to enact policies, nominate Justices, etc that match what you want to see? There’s your answer. You don’t need to huff about how mean random internet people are or complain about how you’re not being courted sweetly enough, you just answer that question and get on with life.
You’re okay with your advocacy efforts making people who have misgivings but are willing to be convinced to vote for Hillary actually being repulsed and less likely to vote for her for your efforts?
Anyway, it’s not a club. No dues, no membership: you just vote. You don’t even have to be a Democrat at all to vote for HRC in the national election, once you realize she’s the best choice and that the alternative is absolutely horrific. (It’s sad but it’s the reality.)
I’m not an especially ardent Clinton supporter, either, really not. But she’s clearly the best choice for 2016, so I’m in.
But there’s some false equivalence here, and probably some confirmation bias. Political figures always have some supporters who behave obnoxiously, no matter how honorable the politician actually is.
If people don’t vote for Clinton because some random guy on the internet wasn’t nice enough to them, there’s far deeper issues than anything the random guy said.
“Well, I’m FOR this policy and AGAINST that policy… oh, but once someone on the internet said something I didn’t like! What to do, what to do?”
This is the SDMB – we’re supposed to be smart people using our big brains here, right?
Maybe we should go ahead and pull up our big-boy pants as well.
There was a swath of sanctimonious ugliness from Sanders supporters I frankly couldn’t stand—and I always had grave concerns about his inability to build coalitions with others and the lack of solid explanations for how he was to implement his ideals, not to mention a pretty poor understanding of international politics—but if he had been the nominee, nothing would have stopped me from voting for him.
Non-controversial issues like access to abortion, gay rights, universal healthcare, progressive taxation, support for minority rights, a living wage, non-Christian religious freedom etc.?
These could be classified as non-controversial issues during the primary season where all candidates agreed on a more or less Liberal agenda. And at that time it was entirely appropriate for you to reject Clinton in favor of Sanders. But now that we are in a general election these are no-longer non-contraversial issues. So the question is whether you are going to stand on principal for the 10% of issues facing our country that Clinton and Sanders disagree with while ignoring the much larger set on which they agree with each other (and probably with you) but disagree with Trump about.
If you really think that Trump who attacks anyone who even looks at him funny is less likely to get us involved in a foreign war, or a billionaire is more likely to fight against economic inequality than Clinton, then I have a wall to sell you.
It’s not “someone on the internet said something I don’t like”, it’s “every person I’ve met advocating for Clinton is either vacuous and has poor reasons, or treats me badly for even suggesting it’s a tough decision for me”
Your advocacy is having a negative effect. It’s making people less likely to vote for your candidate. You’re doing a very bad job of it. Do you understand that? All these disaffected Bernie voters who are considering whether to forego the democratic party are being told “shut up you little babies, now go do your duty and kiss our ass” - you don’t think that’s going to have any effect on their behavior? And it’s not just Bernie voters - lots of republicans would probably be willing to change sides just this once, so make sure you spit on them too to make sure they don’t.
I don’t think Clinton would make a good president. I don’t like voting for people who I don’t feel would make a good president. At best, it makes me feel like I’ve been coerced into our bullshit system of offering me two poor choices which in effect creates a managed democracy. I’m willing to consider sucking that up, and feeling disgusted with myself, in the event that the practical effects of such a decision are too big to set aside for principle.
But every time some Clinton advocate again makes me feel worse about her, and worse about myself for siding with them, it just adds that much more of a psychological barrier to actually being able to side with them. I don’t want to. If I felt like they were good, earnest people who had good reasons to believe what they did, it would be much easier to do so. But Clinton’s advocates are as bad as she is at getting people to want to support her.
So keep on up with that. Keep doing what you’re doing, and when people say “your condescension makes it harder for me to side with you”, double down on it and make sure you maximally alienate them. And then when Clinton loses the election make sure you absolve yourself for any blame for deliberately alienating a whole lot of people with your advocacy and instead blame anyone who voted for Jill Stein or whatever the plan is.
Even if your response to that is “you should be a big enough person to overcome that hurdle”, maybe you should look at yourself by putting the biggest hurdle you can find in front of that person and then insulting them for having a hard time jumping over it.
What’s all your hard work going to matter when the economy tanks? Or that racism that you’re already experiencing becomes far more open and accepted? Or Trump seriously damages foreign alliances? (None of which are unreasonable extrapolations, considering what he’s already done by opening his big mouth without ever having held an office.)
I really couldn’t care less what you think of Hillary. Like it or not, deal with it or not, there are only two options for POTUS. The effects of one winning are clearly far worse than those of the other winning. Blame yourself if you didn’t vote for Hillary and Trump becomes President, whether that was by voting for him, voting for a third-party candidate, or not voting at all.
“Every person [you’ve] met…” :rolleyes: What’s more vacuous? Realizing that HRC’s the best and most qualified candidate in 2016 and deciding to vote for her, or saying you don’t want to vote for her because some of her supporters are poo heads (which is true for literally every politician ever)?
But yes, I sympathize with your feeling that it isn’t an easy choice to support Clinton.
I also think you’re making it seem harder than it actually is.
(1) Did you watch Bill Clinton’s speech yesterday?
(2) Pick your most and least favorite Presidents over the past 60 years, and define a scale where they rank 10 and 0 respectively. Estimate how you will rank a Hillary Presidency on that scale. Estimate how you will rank a Donald Presidency on that scale.
I’m offended that you dare to criticize the conviction of the lead lemming. Here I am, willing to be convinced to follow that lemming off the cliff, and you have to be so condescending about it!
Eh, your reaction is eroding my sympathy for people who complain about politics.
Vote to forward your agenda. Even if you let other people influence you into voting differently (or not at all), your vote is still your responsibility. I feel that you’re trying to divert blame for your vote because you don’t like how others are advocating.
Like I said before, that went unresponded to:
That is, if you’re comfortable with voting candidate X (or abstaining), no matter which way the election goes, then please vote that way. Take responsibility for this vote in this election.
Not to mention should-be-uncontroversial-even-though-we’re-now-in-the-general-election issues like honoring NATO commitments and not stiffing T-bill holders.
Clinton picked a running mate who is personally opposed to abortion, supported nasty anti-abortion laws as governor, and gives lip service to Roe vs Wade while reiterating that he thinks abortion is wrong, so no agreement there. Clinton only became in favor of gay rights after it became a popular cause, as recently as 2007 she explicitly said that she was personally opposed to it and the issue should be left to the states. Clinton is not actually in favor of progressive taxation or a living wage, she’s way too tied in to big money to do more than pay lip service to the idea. Clinton supports the prison-industrial complex and war on drugs, which is a huge attack on all rights, especially minority rights, and voted for a number of crime bills that have really hurt minority communities.
So even with you picking examples, on five out of seven of your examples they mismatch rather spectacularly.
At no point have I advocated voting for Trump. Please pay attention.
“Are you going to put the cat in the microwave or the blender? What do you mean you’re not going to do either one, those are the only two realistic options! If you don’t put the cat in the blender, Joe’s going to put it in the microwave, and if you don’t put the cat in the blender you’re responsible for Joe putting it in the microwave”. Just no.
Of course it’s not good enough, nothing but complying with your wishes would be ‘good enough’. That’s how emotional manipulation works, I’m not going to play the game where you engage in emotional appeals, blame shifting, and bald assertions, but I’m supposed to provide comprehensive cites for whatever I say, especially stuff that’s common knowledge.
Even if you believe abortion should be legal, you should at least be able to comprehend the idea that some people are opposed to deliberately killing unborn children.
For such “common” knowledge you sure are having a hell of a hard time coming up with a single example of it. Since you can’t even back up your so-called “facts” with anything but ever-increasing emotional bluster and handwaving, it looks like the only one trying to play that game you just described is you.