Not sure if this belongs here, but it is in reference to something I saw on TV so here goes…
I just finished watching Simon Schama’s second installment of “History of Britain Part 2”. In this episode, he covers the section of history just after the execution of Charles I all the way to the Restoration and the great Fire of London.
I know what Schama thinks of Cromwell, what I want to know is what most British people think of him? I personally think he was not a very good person(I live in the US by the way), but my GF related this story about one British friend she had that absolutly adored Cromwell and the ideals of the republic. How is Cromwell generally viewed over there?
By the way, is anyone in the UK watching this as well? Or is this one of those TV shows that has to wait 6 to 8 weeks before being aired outside of the US?
Not a Brit but recently went to London and what are the 2 main statues outside of Parliament?
Richard the Lion-Hearted and Oliver Cromwell.
I’m thinking if he wasn’t well liked this would have been taken down and moved long ago. As for the show it could be yet another joint production with the BBC. I know Discovery does this. In which case the BBC could have played it before, during or after it was played here. As per the narrator “He is currently University Professor at Columbia University in New York and writes and presents documentaries for BBC Television.” [sub][sup]from HistoryChannel.com[/sup][/sub]
Like many of these highly principled folk, he started off well but lost himself along the way.
Americans have been expose to a lot of propaganda about him over Ireland, but in this he was no better or worse than any other leader of just about any nation of his day.
The cavaliers are romanticised somewhat and the excesses of Catholic rulers with their religious persecution are often half forgotten.
Cromwell was a reaction against that, he laid the foundation stones for parliamentary democracy, before his time the ruler instructed parliament since it was their divine right, after him it was parliament that limited the power of the monarch.
Well he’s loathed in Ireland for well-known reasons (see Osiris’s article), but AFAIK he’s generally perceived in mainland UK as a strong ruler. Statues aside (who looks at statues except tourists? ;)) his name doesn’t feature strongly over here in the media/culture/pub conversation. An equally interesting question would be: how many people in the UK know what he actually did? I suspect the answer is: not many.
LOL. Since the series was actually made by the BBC (History of Britain) I think it might just have got an airing over here in the non-US. In fact (shhh! don’t tell anyone) we might just have seen it before you :D.
(Incidentally, I love HoB. IMHO Schama is a perfect example of the BBC’s continuing ability to pick superb presenters for this type of programme.)
I just watch the replay of today episode (I missed where the Scots tried to establish a colony the first time) and it was actually History of Britain II. A sequel and they said this was it’s world premiere. But I’d still guess the BBC is involved and will be seeing it very very soon, if not practically simultaneously.
I just watched the replay of today episode (I missed where the Scots tried to establish a colony the first time) and it was actually History of Britain II. A sequel and they said this was it’s world premiere. But I’d still guess the BBC is involved and will be seeing it very very soon, if not practically simultaneously.
I visited Scotland several years ago on business, and was being driven around Dundee by my contact, who gave me a running tour. Lit up in the darkness was a small Keep (or maybe a really small castle).
“Y’see that?” he asked, pointing to the walls, still pockmarked after all these years with ugly cannot shot holes. “Crom’ll did that!”
I saw the first group of programmes but not the second, which, i thought, were screed here about 6 months ago – I could be wrong. It is a 100% BBC production with some joint project funding, from THC I believe. Interestingly, a third series is planned for 2002.
Not going to comment on Cromwell cos he’s a mother of a contentious character and one who takes entire books to begin to understand in the context of his time and circumstances. One heavy dude.
That aside, I wanted to say I think Simon Schama did a very good job of bringing history to life and making it both contextual and relevant. Not bad for a practicing Art Historian (although, IIRC, he studied Modern History at Cambridge).
The problem was, as always, time and I felt some episodes – IIRC the Tudors was one example – positively whizzed past events that would, in other episodes, have been more closely addressed. i.e. sometimes the time given to substantively more significant events was proportionally far less in comparison so to make the overall feel a little out of kilter. That’s obviously a product of wrapping eras up in convenient episodic form and I think that could have been done better (presumably with a few more episodes).
Also, I guess it’s always a problem in these programmes to vary the presentation but I thought his pieces to camera in different styles, the use of voiceover against re-enactments, etc worked reasonably well. And he had a very good grasp of the subject – good job, I thought by both Schama and the BBC.
Schama was trained as an historian, although he has always had a strong interest in art history. Some would say that as an art historian he is little more than a dilettante - Rembrandt’s Eyes was pretty much universally panned by the academic critics.
The following website is intended to accompany a documentary about Cromwell that was shown earlier this week by Channel 4, another of the main UK TV channels.
The statue of Cromwell in Westminster Square was enormously controversial when it was erected in the late nineteenth century. It is sited where it is because the House of Commons objected to the idea that it be placed inside the Palace of Westminster. They also refused to vote any public funds towards its cost.
Cromwell is very much a historical figure in most of Britain. ie most of us have no opinion about him either way. Its a bit liked being asked one’s opinion on Boadicia or Edward IV.
However there are exceptions to this. I was raised a Roman Catholic and we don’t like him at all. Partly over the Irish imbroglio and partly because of his iconocalstic stance towards us.
I would also say that most people’s opinion of him in some way reveal their political felings eg those on the left would probabaly have a higher regard for him than those on the right. I also think geography is important.
I come from a very royalist part of the country (winchester) and he’s not a folk hero there (although a district of winchester is called “oliver’s battery” as he stationed his troops there whilst beseiging the city).
However in other areas he may be more highly regarded (Perhaps in Lewes where they burn the pope in effigy every nov 5?)
A third series would be very cool! I wonder if they are going to devote that series to specifically the 20th century. I can’t wait to hear Simon Schama talk about the groovy 60s.
So far I’ve been hearing that Cromwell is generally detested in Ireland and Scotland , and England’s attitude can be summed up as a general “meh”. I get the impression from HoB that he did the most to establish a constitutional monarchy than anyone else. On the other hand, he did kill a lot of people, and he tried to establish a theocracy in England. Maybe all his good deeds were cancelled out by his bad deeds. A complicated character indeed.
Originally posted by London_Calling:
“Not bad for a practicing Art Historian (although, IIRC, he studied Modern History at Cambridge).”
Aw. . . “not bad for an art historian”? What does THAT mean?. . . whimper. . .
And ABP is right, art historians don’t really claim him as one of theirs-- he’s a “social historian”, sort of a crossover guy, but that doesn’t mean that every 16th-17th C. Dutch Art historian doesn’t have a copy of “The Embarassment of Riches.”
** capybara** – Well, they’re a fairly oddball bunch of people. All that sexual repression channelled into fulminating over the form, etc Post Grad ? JustPlainBryan – UK prices, dude !
Post Grad ?