HMS_Irruncible, I have a suggestion for where you can place your concern

This was originally written as a response to go into ATMB, but with @What_Exit’s mod note, I chose to place it here instead. Had I started here, I may have tried being a bit less diplomatic, so here’s a “fuck” just to even it out.

Look, your first post in that thread was to say that the posters were not informed, that they didn’t want to be informed “because they’re clinging to defensive pessimism”. Then followed by, "if you’re determined to feel scared because Trump’s going to find a loophole, nobody can help you. Nobody. "

Then you go on with “And yet, this will still be insufficient for you. So yes, for now, let’s just say Trump is an unstoppable demon-master who is borderline invisible and can steal ghosts.”

It is all about the posters, and not about the topic. It is insulting and demeaning, and it is IMHO, less appropriate in such a thread than Bo’s response to it.

The very second line, after asking to be called a fool, the OP says,

Which is what a fair amount of the thread was about. That you chose to exclude that was your choice, but that doesn’t mean that everyone else must do so. It was not a hijack, it was literally the second line of the OP.

This is not true. But what people did not want to hear was accusations of “handwringing”, of mischaracterizations of their positions of realistic concern boiled down to “cheat codes”, or “this is the defensive pessimism at work. These threads always end with “he can do anything” and there’s no helping people like you”. or “I have been pointing out since August that the rest of you are hyperventilating about him stealing the election; when he leaves office I will gloat unremittingly over my correctness.”

When you say, “Here I’m wondering if anybody has even read the OP.”, or "very Trump-related question must devolve into a hand-wringing jeremiad of “he’s broken everything and he can do whatever he wants”. You are directly insulting the other posters in the thread.

Even in this post here, you claim “There is simply no way to talk realistically about what Trump can or can’t do, without launching directly into a jeremiad about woe is us, all is lost.”

Nothing that you have said contributes anything, it just serves to put others down, and give you a smug sense of self satisfaction. You misrepresent and mischaracterize other’s positions, and then make fun of them.

It is very frustrating, and I think it is entirely inappropriate for civil discourse.

So anyway, since this is in the Pit now, fuck off and shove your concern where the sun don’t shine.

Oooooh! Shots fired.

This is off to become the most well considered and thoughtfully debated pitting ever.

< Pulls up lounge sofa and makes sous vide popcorn. >

I think this is a pretty fair characterization of numerous Trump threads I’ve participated in. Folks have seen Trump cheat death and break the rules so many times that they assume he can do literally anything he wants. I understand this and I struggle with the same impulse. It’s frustrating to try to explain that in spite of the breakage, laws still exists and rules still apply. It’s frustrating to point out that Trump is losing his court cases to the tune of 1 for 35, yet people act like he’s on the verge of pulling some massive heist. He’s not.

I am entirely correct in this assessment. This issue is always treated as an all-or-nothing question.

You’ve misread the situation pretty dramatically if you think I’m remotely concerned about any part of that thread, so your accusation of concern trolling misses the mark pretty badly.

Nevertheless, I have always seen you as a solidly OK person, and I’m sorry to have disturbed you, and I will make a mental note to be slightly less irritating in the future. In fact I do regret stating my views in a way that has obviously gotten folks way more exercised than I wanted.

See that? Not even a ‘Yo’ mama!’.

Classy as fuck.

Well done.

Wasn’t there some point in the Civil War where Grant had to tell his Union troops something to the effect of, “No, General Lee is not going to suddenly double back on us out of the blue and envelope us on both of our flanks without warning - he can’t do that?”

That is how some Trump opponents think these days. They think Trump can pull a rabbit out of a hat (just because he has indeed defied some odds before.)

Where’s the fighting? Where’s the invective?

Sigh. < puts away popcorn… >

See, this is why I describe myself as a Green Moderate with some odd socialist leanings these days . I actually see a few posters that do indulge in handwringing if you will. I don’t think Trump is the harbinger of the end of USA as we knew it, but rather a big step back as we move forward and the last gasp for the oldest generation.

We’ll move forward on healthcare, decriminalizing drugs and being mature world citizens when it comes to climate change and pollution in general. Things are going to slowly improve on race issues. Hell, not bad to have Obama for 2 terms and now Harris as VP. That was inconceivable as recently as the 1970s I believe.

It sucks so many Americans could support a snake oil salesman like Trump. The man oozes slime and nastiness. But we also re-elected a puppet President under Dick Cheney who was actually evil. Clearly we still have a long way to go. Hopefully with some better candidates from both parties.

Thanks, it’s the least I could do.

See this is what happens when we elect Joe Biden.

Everyone just chills the fuck out.

That kind of talk got me excoriated for naive optimism in the other thread, and to be honest, I’m not as optimistic as you.

At the risk of tossing another bomb in here, if you think American democracy has materially and permanently changed for the worse, you’re probably white. And you might even be right! But an enormous number of people in this country have never had cause to think there’s some point in the mythic past where democracy was healthy and working for everybody. It’s always been a shitshow for the folks on the margins.

This is a novel experience, I think it’s my first pitting? Anybody pitting me is going to be disappointed. I don’t double down. Like maybe at most a 17% down.

I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. I am so, so angry about the attempt to disenfranchise me, but I didn’t think much about it (other than “that’s bad and wrong”) when it was happening to others. I’m ashamed of that.

Well, since there doesn’t seem to be imminent bloodshed and tears, might as well do some clearing up. The actual quote (and it was U.S. Grant that said it) is:

Press on.

You know who else is classy as fuck?

Now we have to ask ourselves if it was worth it.

(Yes.)

Huh? No. Concern trolling is specifically an accusation you aren’t actually concerned. It is saying you were only pretending to be concerned but were actually posting to piss people off or start a fight.

I hope you misspeak when you say you aren’t actually concerned about anything. Because you presented yourself as being concerned about how people were being too pessimistic. If you weren’t actually concerned about that, that would be concern trolling.

I also don’t see how you didn’t double down, when both of your other responses were “I was right.” Is that not the definition of “doubling down”—someone points out why you’re wrong, but you say you’re still right?

I don’t think you are right about that thread. At least, when I checked it out at first, I saw several posters saying that things wouldn’t be great, but that the OP was worried about things that were unlikely to happen.

You seemed to be more frustrated by a general trend you had been seeing, and maybe some posters in that thread. I would suggest making separate thread about those frustrations would have been a better fit, rather than expressing that frustration in a thread that’s about reassuring people who are scared.

Oh, and I don’t think it’s remotely just white people who think Trump crossed several lines which have not been crossed before, and who are wary of what he can do. None of us think democracy was working well before, just that things are worse now that a wannabe dictator destroyed things.

My hope is that this awakens people more aware of the lesser stuff that was going on before, that we’re all more awake. My fear is that people will just ignore it because it’s “not as bad as what Trump did.”

That is not what concern trolling is.

Concern trolling would be something like “I’m not a Trump supporter, but I’m worried that the Democrats aren’t doing enough to combat voter fraud.” Or “I voted for Biden, but I’m starting to think Sidney Powell might be on to something.” That disingenuous I’m-on-your-side pose enables the concern troll to infiltrate a group, and sow doubt and undermine discussion.

Whatever HMS_Irruncible was doing in that thread, it wasn’t concern trolling.

‘Catastrophe-sing’, is an absolutely recognized trauma response. It’s a protection thing, like ‘assume the worst! Never be disappointed!’.

And the American people have, to some degree, definitely been traumatized by this Presidency. It’s not a reasoned response, but it is understandably human I think.

As such, I feel it should be tolerated with patience and understanding. They’re only human beings, after all.

Well, doubling down involves taking one’s argument even further, whereas I conceded certain points without conceding all of them.

There’s no way I’ll concede Trump can steal the election, because he can’t and he won’t and it will be proven by January 20th, if not January 6th or December 13th or even earlier. He attempted it, and every single one of his toadies attempted it, and they will fail because partly because our institutions withstood the attacks, contra the anxious hand-wringers, but partially because jurisdiction over elections is so broadly distributed that it’s nigh impossible to steal the whole thing. He hasn’t ended up cancelling any votes to my knowledge. I won’t be an insufferable prick and go around crowing that I was right, but you’ll see my avatar and you’ll know it in your bones.

So, I’m incontrovertibly correct on that score and then I admit I was frustrated and kind of acted like a dick and didn’t really engage the question of institutional resilience, which I decline to get involve with because I don’t think the damage being discussed is even quantifiable in ways that can justify the level of anxiety we’re seeing.