Honor Killings

[randy054]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/111...lling14-ON.html

ABU H, West Bank - Rofayda Qaoud - raped by her brothers and impregnated - refused to commit suicide, her mother recalls, even after she bought the unwed teenager a razor with which to slit her wrists. So Amira Abu Hanhan Qaoud says she did what she believes any good Palestinian parent would: restored her family’s “honor” through murder.

Armed with a plastic bag, razor and wooden stick, Qaoud entered her sleeping daughter’s room last Jan. 27. “Tonight you die, Rofayda,” she told the girl, before wrapping the bag tightly around her head. Next, Qaoud sliced Rofayda’s wrists, ignoring her muffled pleas of “No, mother, no!” After her daughter went limp, Qaoud struck her in the head with the stick.

Amira Abu Hanhan Qaoud is charged in the death of her 17-year-old daughter, Rofayda. “This is the only way I could protect my family’s honor,” says the mother of nine.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2001792978.jpg

Killing her sixth-born child took 20 minutes, Qaoud tells a visitor through a stream of tears and cigarettes that she smokes in rapid succession. “She killed me before I killed her,” says the 43-year-old mother of nine. “I had to protect my children. This is the only way I could protect my family’s honor.”

There is much more at the above url. I can not for the life of me understand how any sane human could take the life of one of thier own children.
So, what really do some muslims think in the Middle East anout “honor killings” ? (Murder)
This is from Jordan

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3088828.stm
‘Honour killings’ law blocked

Parliament in Jordan has overwhelmingly rejected a proposed law imposing harsher punishments for men who kill female relatives in what are known as “honour killings”.
It was the second time since June’s elections that the lower house, the Chamber of Deputies, quashed the bill on such killings, which are mostly carried out by brothers and fathers against women who have had sex outside of marriage.

Islamists and conservatives opposed to the new law said it would encourage vice and destroy social values.

Another bill - allowing women to divorce their husbands - was referred to a parliamentary legal committee for further review.

In August, the upper house, or Senate, upheld both bills, after they were rejected by the lower house. The bills now are expected to be debated jointly by both chambers.

Correspondents say that if lawmakers continue to reject the amendments, only intervention by the Jordanian monarch, King Abdullah, can ensure they come into effect.

Guardians of traditions

Honour killings of women in Jordan have caused international outrage.

Honour killings
Permitted under Jordanian law articles 340 and 98
Usually carried out by brother or father of victim

But Jordanian MPs argue that more lenient punishments will violate religious traditions and damage the fabric of Jordan’s conservative society, where men have the final say.

“60 of the 85 deputies… voted to reject this temporarily because the amendments were superficial and did not deal with the root of the issue,” MP Adab Saoud told the AFP news agency.

Under the existing law, people found guilty of committing honour killings often receive sentences as light as six months in prison.

In 2001, King Abdullah passed a temporary bill imposing harsher penalties for honour killings.

But parliament recently voted to dissolve the bill.

what a twisted culture…

[randy054]

Looks like the link above expired

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2001793273_honorkilling17.html

[fushj00mang]

And this is what liberals call ‘an honorable culture and an honorable religion.’ I do not agree with, but can at least comprehend that which the Koreans and Chineese are doing in Asia. I can see what the rebels in Georgia are about. I can even show empathy for the remaining Ba’athists in Iraq, but its this type of bullshit that makes me want to throw my hands up and say “Fuck the middle east, fuck Islam, and fuck your sense of honor” before ordering my troops to fire on anyone within fifty yards of my wire.

(BTW, I just got orders. So I’ll be seeing y’all around.)

SSgt. Mang

[kung_fu_lola]

Wow, you Americans must be very proud to have fush as part of your laudable armed forces.

FWIW, the “Women who have sex outside of marriage” mentioned in the article are usually actually rape victims. Nice euphemism, though.

[Tusculan]

An expert will sure come along to point out any incorrect assumptions and statements in the earlier posts or linked pages.

AFAIK honor killing is not connected to muslim religion, but rather is connected to earlier local cultural customs. You may find those customs abhorrent (as indeed I do), but linking it to the muslim religion is (if I’m correct) quite nonsensical.

[randy054]

*Originally posted by Tusculan *
**An expert will sure come along to point out any incorrect assumptions and statements in the earlier posts or linked pages.

AFAIK honor killing is not connected to muslim religion, but rather is connected to earlier local cultural customs. You may find those customs abhorrent (as indeed I do), but linking it to the muslim religion is (if I’m correct) quite nonsensical. **

In Jordan to which culture and/or traditions does it belong?
Jordan is a neighbor of Saudi Arabia, the holy land of Islam. Are you saying that within the last 1400 years of Islam, these practices were not bled out so to speak, assuming it was the culture prior to adherance of Islamic culture.
Nevertheless, there is an interesting thread on this at an Islamic Board, in which the moderator himself admits unregrettably it is part of Islam.
http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=21029

This from Ultra-Muslim

In the case of the girl who was raped, it is an ignorant practice, which is not backed by either Quran, Sunnah, or Hadith. It is a remnant of pre-Islamic Arab culture that has lingered, particularly in Bedouin groups.

It is not an Islamically validated action.

and From Roya (Shia-Chat Moderator)

This has everything to do with Islam because this is injustice and oppression.

I think outside observers have every right to blame Islam because of the huge disconnect between this blessed religion and what its believers are doing out of ignorance and miseducation. So long as we believe in the double standards of our cultures, allow it to exist in our homes, and ultimately our minds, this will go repeate with each generation.

What’s the point of Islamic laws if there are not ethical people enforcing them?

and dont forget:

60 of the 85 deputies… voted to reject this temporarily because the amendments were superficial and did not deal with the root of the issue," MP Adab Saoud told the AFP news agency.

I agree it may not be Islamically valid, but it is part of the Islamic culture nevertheless.

Are the crimes commited in America due to the consitution, if no, then noone is responsible and we can forget about it.

[Typo_Negative]

Hey, if the woman has to commit suicide after being raped, does that mean they look at the rape the same way they would look at a murder?? Would they charge with the rapist with murder?

[Angua]

Guys, can I just point out here, this is a cultural thing. Not a religous thing. It is not part of the Islamic religion, in fact it is totally frowned upon in the Islamic religion.

There are many many instances of girls from Hindu families being killed to protect the family’s honour as well. Its not just confined to Islam.

[randy054]

Ok, understood, it is a cultural thing.

I like this reply by this poster at Shia Chat best and would have to agree lol.

EX-Muslim

i do believe in honor killing.

But the honor wud be to kill the brothers who raped her and mother.

Why does the mother not kill the brothers who raped the daughter?

Again…where is Merciful…the Beneficient? No divine intervention.

The girl’s existence was unjust!

Zuljenah

I agree. Why the hell didn’t the stupid brothers get killed… Talk about major unjustice. That makes me so mad… Why is the girl always to blame and suffer!! Its the damn idiotic boys who lost the family’s honour, not the girl!!! They should be killed! God, how sick does someone have to be to rape his own sister or anyone… And they call themselves Muslim!! And that stupid mother without any brains goes ahead and kills her daughter… How incredibly sick… Now that people KNOW about this case… Justice should be served!

[Tusculan]

Sorry, randy, but I don’t quite understand your post. One of the links actually supports my understanding of the practice. Angua rightly points out that there is no link to Islam. Your quote/post only says that it exists as part of a culture of several Islamic countries. That doesn’t mean that it is part of ‘the’ Islamic culture.

Gun-possession is part of American culture per the Constitution, and American culture purportedly is a Christian culture. Does that mean that gun-possession is part of Christian culture?

But again, I’m no expert in these matters so I may be completely wrong. Since I gather you’re not an expert either, I hope you do allow for a similar possibility of misinterpretation on your side.

[Master_Wang-Ka]

I figured it was a cultural thing, since I don’t seem to remember any of this last time I perused the Koran. Then again, I don’t remember anything about suicide bombings in there, either…

[Angua]

There isn’t anything in the Koran about honour killings or suicide bombings. Unfortunately, my copy of the Koran is at home, so I can’t provide you with a cite.

Once again, its idiots who have a mis-interpreted view of the religion using it to justify atrocities.

And then Muslims wonder why we get such a bad rep in the media. hmmm.

[lee]

*Originally posted by Angua *
**
Once again, its idiots who have a mis-interpreted view of the religion using it to justify atrocities.
**

This happens with nearly all religions. Islam is not unique in having idiots commit attrocities and claim that their god said it was ok. I think assholery and religion seem to be connected all too often. There is a certain boldness that is gained when one believes the almighty is on ones side. Is there any religion out there not prone to this sort of thing?

To be fair many cultural traditition that pre-exist a relgion have become associated with or attributed to that religion. People think traditions such as Christmas trees and Easter Eggs are Christian in origin and don’t look further back to explain them. Honor killings may well be such a cultural tradition, but with so many defending them in the name of religion it is difficult for outsiders to see anything else.

[Rune]

Every man is the author of his own religion. If a Moslem believes honor killing is an Islamic practice; it is so – for that person.

Abe might think different. Shiver

• Rune

[Binarydrone]

*Originally posted by kung fu lola *
Wow, you Americans must be very proud to have fush as part of your laudable armed forces…

I’m not even proud to have him as part of my species.

[SnoopyFan]

note to self: give thanks Thursday for not living in that incredibly fucked up culture

[county]

Well, I may certainly abhor certain activities of other cultures (just as they abhor activities of my culture) but I don’t think I want America in the business of making other cultures (thru force) amenable to my values - that is what Bush is purportedly doing.

[Mehitabel]

Somebody tell those folks that Tim McVeigh was an athiest, please

Anyway, randy is right–the culture has had FOURTEEN HUNDRED YEARS TO CHANGE. What is the problem? How can any religion that has had such an emphasis on scholarship and unity put up with this? The West has moved more quickly to distance itself from past outrages–the Crusades were disavowed after a couple of hundred years, and the last ‘official’ ones were acknowledged to be pathetic disasters. Vatican II radically changed the largest Christian church in the world, with a billion adherents, in just ten years, etc.

So why is this primitive underlying culture allowed to still be extent? And I know this is horribly embarrassing to sane and modern Muslims, even ones who are very religious; but then why not stamp it out with an appeal to reason and the newer, more enlighted teachings of Muhammed?

[Guinastasia]

I have no doubt, that were the Pat Robertson types to gain control in the West, we would see something similiar-not this scenario, but you’d have people executed for being gay, or jailed for having sex outside of marriage, or not being the right religion.

We’re just lucky.

[Ms2001]

*Originally posted by Mehitabel *
Somebody tell those folks that Tim McVeigh was an athiest, please

But did he justify his actions with his (lack of) religion?

“Sure, I blew up a building, but it’s okay because there’s no God!”