“as everyone she didn’t deserve that crap.”
should read
“as as everyone knew she didn’t deserve that crap.”
:rolleyes:
Oh, please. IMO, that is using it responsibly. I was ‘used’ by my senior math teacher as a last fling before she got married. It is one of my fondest memories 30+ years later.
Yes, those teachers were stupid. Yes, we need laws but I bet not one of those boys are emotionally scarred. Big jail time in those cases is the real crime.
Sorry, I wasn’t clear. I meant that all the comments on OP’s link.
Female sleaze balls seem to generally have it much easier than the male sleaze balls in cases like these. Few of the women receive more than probation and a pink slip while the men get to hear big numbers like “10” and “40.”
I can imagine making up a really interesting new kind of counting game on Sesame Street.
Do you feel the same way about male teachers who have sex with their"consenting" underage female students? No one will respond to that question, and again, I think the double standard here is bullshit.
And I’m not sure how you can assert, with 100% certainty, that the boys suffer no negative effects. Boys are not supposed to feel bad about having sex, and would be mocked and derided for saying so, so I think the reporting of negative reactions is going to be lower from boys. However, I know an awful lot of 12 and 13 year olds, and I can honestly say, I think sex would traumatize them at that age. They can’t handle it. Hell, they can’t manage a lot of basic functions that older people can manage. They are still children. The ones I know who have had sex at that age were already screwed up for one reason or another.
I do think the penalty varies with the age of the victim. However, I think you can agree with me that a woman who throws her life away to pursue sex with a student is unbalanced and not possessing of sound judgment. If you really need to have sex with a 17 year old (that’s the age of consent in NY), find one who isn’t your student. Or wait until he graduates. The decision to go ahead with the sex seems to indicate that this is a person who not only should be drummed out of the teaching profession (for bad judgment if not the predatory actions), but who might need, as one of the teachers did on the OP’s link, psychosexual counseling.
You have all the time in the world to have sex with hot but mentally unbalanced women. Why not enjoy being a kid a while longer?
And BTW, in a majority of the states of the USA, the legal age of consent IS 16.
Which still does not preclude that it be unethical, stupid or in violation of specific laws related to *in loco parentis * considerations, to get it on with your student, even if he has made the magic number. But it does mean those states recognize that it’s not the same thing as a “child”.
OK, I’ll respond. No I do not feel the same way about male teachers that prey on “consenting” females. The double standard is not bullshit. I’m not denying that girls might be as horny as guys at that age, but that is not the issue. The issue is the resulting emotional trauma. Do you honestly believe these male “victims” are held in a bad light by their peers as a female would? It’s ludicrous to deny a double standard. Answer me this, if we’re all so equal why is it the guys always having to pursue women for sex than the other way around? Not relationships, casual sex? As a guy having spent a lot of time in ‘the locker room’ I can assure you I have never heard of a guy crying about being taken advantage of sexually. Nor has any guy’s, I know, reputation been soiled by having inappropriate sex.
I didn’t assert that, I said “I bet not one of those boys are emotionally scarred.” Big difference. And I could be wrong… care to take that wager?
This is the bullshit. I am fully indoctrinated into the guy culture, this just does not happen. Sure there would be the occasional guy that might feel this way. You know how the avoid it? They don’t have consensual sex.
This is simply not what we are talking about. We are not talking about forced molestation. We are talking about 15-17yo guys who were probably already sexually active.
Another double standard at work here is that women are not usually as sleazy as guys. I really doubt that these women were looking innocence (innocents?).
Totally agree. But again the issue that is being raised here is emotional damage to the male kids.
Again, agreed.
Umm… it feels great?
We’re not saving for retirement here. Sex can be good now and later.
The fact that you liked it doesn’t make it a smart thing to do, for reasons that have already been given in this thread.
“But I liked it!” is exactly the response that one would give to justify an irresponsible act.
Yes, it is, in terms of evaluating the guilt of an adult who is taking advantage of a power position to have sex with an underage student. There are a hell of a lot of men who would say your sexist attitude is ridiculous. I don’t think girls are traumatized any more than boys are. If anything, your double standard and stereotypical sexist ideas about what men are like and what women are like perpetuates what traumatizes the girls and encourages the boys to do idiotic things that they’re not ready to do in any way but physically, if that.
How in touch with teenage culture are you? If so many teenage girls are having sex (about 50%), how bad is this alleged stigma?
Always? I don’t know, maybe you always have to. If so, I don’t think you should be using words like “always.” Because this is not a conversation about you.
You’re using locker room talk as a basis for deciding that it’s totally OK for adult female teachers to take advantage of their male students? Wow.
I’d like to see how you’d prove this so you could “win” your wager.
Again, this is what YOU were talking about. This is NOT what the thread is about. Siam Sam talked about wanting to do his 7th grade math teacher. PLENTY of people in this thread were talking about sex with people younger than 15. Nowhere was it established that any of the boys in the OP’s link were sexually active, and I guarantee the younger ones were not. You cannot reframe the debate to make yourself right.
This is hilarious. You are pulling this out of your ass. I don’t think you can prove this.
I think it was clear in the OP’s link that some of these boys were put in situations, like fathering a kid at 13, attempting to murder a woman’s husband, and going on the run with the woman and her 4 year old, which would have been emotionally damaging to the boy.
Sex with emotionally unbalanced adults when you’re a kid is not a good idea. You agreed that the women were probably nutty. It feels good on one level, but there are other factors to consider. I’ve seen both boys and girls suffer emotional trauma from having intensely bad relationships in high school. I can only imagine how bad it would be if that relationship were with a grown woman with mental problems.
Irresponsible? According to who, you? I wasn’t yelling fire in a crowded theater. I wasn’t giving a loaded gun to my 3 year old. I was a past-puberty male having consensual sex with a past-puberty female. Explain to me the “irresponsible” aspect on my part again…
Rubystreak, I understand your passion. I disagree with the above. I do not feel like I have a sexist attitude. The fact that “here are a hell of a lot of men who would say your sexist attitude is ridiculous” doesn’t mean they are right.
It’s been a hard week for me, it’s Friday night and I’m taking the edge off. If you will allow me a pass until I won’t be infringing on the board rules of drinking and posting I would love to continue this discussion tomorrow.
This idea that girls are delicate little flowers who need to be protected from sex lest they be permanently damaged emotionally FOREVER, but boys just love it no matter how insane or irresponsible their partner is and could not possibly be harmed by it in any way… it’s sexist. Men who have sex with willing female students should have the book thrown at them, women who do the same are heroes… sexist. Girls have to worry about their reputations, boys can only improve theirs via screwing… sexist.
Sure, if you want, but I don’t think we’re going to find a way to agree. And in this case, I am not particularly interested in finding a middle ground with you. Teachers should not screw their students. Period. End of story.
Once again you are misquoting me. It’s not about the teachers, men or women they are both equally culpable. I’m not even saying that “girls are delicate little flowers who need to be protected from sex”. I’m saying society views a difference and that is true no matter how much you wish it wasn’t.
I actually like and respect you as a poster. But in this instance you continue to twist my words. In my penultimate post to you on the subject of whether teachers should screw there students I said, “Totally agree” (they should not). Again, it’s not about that.
To clear the slate, a question:
Do you think that high school girls and guys reputations are held to the same same standard regarding sexual history? Yes or no.
We don’t have different laws regarding statutory rape because of your perception of how boys and girls deal with sex. The law is the same for men and for women who take advantage of their students. And it should be, regardless of how much the child in question enjoyed or was complicit in the sex.
Well, then what the hell IS it about?
The standard is not as different as you think it is. I do not see the stigma you think exists. Half of all teenagers are sexually active. Where is this stigma?
OK, you lost me. So if no one is getting hurt why should it be against the law? Oh yeah, because of the double standard for girls that doesn’t exist. Sorry, you can’t have it both ways.
As far as I can tell when it suits your needs to be about the kids it is, when that doesn’t work it’s about the perps.
Thanks for the yes or no answer. By saying “it’s not as different as I might think” you are conceding my point. It is different. I would like to hear you state that you believe there no social stigmatic difference in high school guys and girls sexual history. If you say there is none you are being disingenuous or naive. I’m sure you are a rough and tumble gal who bucks the stereotype but that doesn’t make it true across the board.
I do not mean that last sentence as a negative or bad thing.
Just to add the female perspective, I had a fling with my 34 year old history teacher when I was in 11th grade so I was 16 or 17. I have no regrets, it was a lovely relationship. He was by no means the initiator of that relationship; I was. I had no notions that it would be a long term relationship and I would have thought anyone mad who suggested it could or should be. And honestly, anybody who was worried about my reputation as a result was not talking about anything that I had any interest in whatsoever – I did not expect or desire to go to my wedding night (should I have one) a virgin.
In that same year, one of the seniors dated and later married our gym coach, who was then in his twenties. I think it’s fair to say that everybody knew, though it remained largely unspoken. I imagine everybody knew about me, too, though I don’t recall any fall out. Both she and I were well over the age of consent in our state; if I recall correctly it was then 14 years old.
But I do think that the world has changed in many ways, not least because it seems to me that I am a member of the perhaps generation and a half in all of human history for whom sexual relationships were not potentially dangerous (not to say deadly). In those halcyon days the worst that could happen to you would be to get herpes, or a broken heart. From my younger siblings (who are now 26 and 23 respectively) I have gathered over the years that this outlook has changed to say the least. They were far more serious in these matters than I was or than my peers were in general. They were also far less independent at 17 than we were expected to be.
I don’t think it’s generally a good thing for 17 year olds to go around dating 34 year olds whatever their gender – and if the 34 year old is the teacher the situation is even more perilous. Even back then I didn’t think it would be a great idea for some of my peers to have done it, as they were mostly less, er, predatory than I was. And I am hard put to imagine any situation in which it would be a good thing for a 12 to 15 year old. But I also think the ball has in some ways swung quite far the other way.
Someone asked earlier on about child support. I’m fairly sure there are judgments on record that stipulate that even though the mother statutory-raped the father, it doesn’t invalidate the claim of the child on the father. May have to dig for a cite, I’ll see what I can come up with.
Boys and girls have the potential to be hurt equally, but not for the reasons you think. I’m not talking about bad reputations. I’m talking about being manipulated and used by adults with mental problems and/or seriously irresponsible adults. That consequences for that would be felt by both boys and girls. The perpetrators should be punished equally, regardless of the gender of the victim.
It’s always been about the kids. I said the perps (male or female) should be treated the same, by the same laws, with the same consequences.
No, but nice try.
How much time do you spend amongst teenagers? I can tell you, having sex is just not as big a deal as you think it is. The word “slut” gets used, but only if the girl has made herself unpopular for other reasons. There are boys who are known to be sleezy, and a boy who had sex with his teacher would probably not be looked on kindly by girls his own age. His male peers might cheer for him, but I don’t know if the girls would.
The differences are not what you’d think.
Teachers should keep their hands off the students. Period. Full stop.
Yuck. That site made me queasy. I am disturbed by these women abusing these boys and their positions of authority. I am nauseated by the capricious and arbitrary sentencing–some are fired, others look at major time in prison. I think it’s wrong for any teacher to fuck any student–I don’t care what the respective ages or genders are-- but there is something particularly nasty about doing this to middle schoolers. Rubystreak and others are correct: they are NOT mature; they are decidedly not able to handle this type of relating.
I am also more than nauseated by the nudge, nudge, wink, wink smirking I see here. If you were 12 and your math teacher made a strong pass at you–I highly doubt you would unzip and enter bliss. You would have been shocked, scared and excited–and most likely, ashamed and anxious. This is RL, folks, not a fantasy. You can claim all you like that Ms. Watson was a walking wet dream but you’re overlooking the DREAM part of it all. This is your teacher, the one who talks to your parents and grades your papers and who you only know as the person in front of the classroom M-F. Anything else you have brought to the table–your fantasies, your desires, your lust. None of that is bad, until actual contact is made. Crossing that line shifts the relationship into unsafe, confusing areas–now where are your grades? What if she tells? What if you two are discovered? Why is she doing this? You want it and you don’t want it at the same time. I think there are plenty of males out there who did not want this. All this macho shit about any guy’d be proud and none would say no is BS to me. That attitude makes it that much harder for men to step up and admit abuse–if they choose. (and I realize that there are boys/men who would be glad of having had the experience–note the tense). Note that the boys didn’t have a choice, though. Or at least they didn’t say no. Not saying no does not imply permission, approval or desire, in my book, and that’s true for both genders.
If you were 16, you might respond differently, but I’ll bet the anxiety would still be mixed with at least some shame and fear (of discovery, if nothing else). And now at 16, you know a bit more about the world–enough to be somewhat cynical and see the potential for manipulation on your part (ie you’ll tell if she grades you down)–but what about her part? 16 year olds don’t think like that. They don’t think they’re being used for sex (or attempted murder etc); they can’t think past the actual sex.
I honestly cannot see bragging about having sex with a teacher in the locker room. Oddly enough, I can easily see bragging about “nailing” the prom queen or “delivering the hot salami” to that plain girl who got drunk at that party last weekend (I don’t say doing this is a good thing; I can see it happening). I can even see bragging about a MILF in the locker room–but NOT a teacher.
I vividly recall high school, and with few exceptions there were two camps: us and them. Every now and then a teacher (usually male who’d been in the War–pick your war–or had some degree of celebrity of some kind) could act as a liaison, but overwhelmingly, it was Us and Them. Even teachers you liked you might not stick up for at all times. Even teachers who made you (female) swoon or (male) hard–they were admired or worshiped from a distance.
The contrast was at its height in HS, where lines between various Us’s and Them’s tend to be drawn in black and white and are about as permeable as Teflon. I’m not saying that there were open hostilities, but teachers and deans and administrators were beyond the pale. They Didn’t Understand. They Weren’t Us–they were old or married or old AND married. They had no lives–they were teachers! (some of whom I am still convinced had no home, but roosted upside down in the rafters of the south gym until dawn came and they could feast on our flesh again).
By senior year, some of the line had bleached or faded out, but not entirely. For kids to cross over or teachers to break through that line requires forethought, planning and secrecy. These women knew what they were doing (the boys, I’m not so sure). The fact that they ARE attractive women (so could presumably get laid by all these guys I’m told are out there, just dying to give ‘em some lovin’–where the hell are these men? I haven’t met them.), and yet turned to adolescent males who are NOT known for their sexual prowess or staying power, should strike all of you as odd. A huge red flag, there.
This wasn’t about sex for these teachers–it was about power. Please stop thinking that this was about their sexual pleasure–what 14 year old can adequately pleasure an adult woman? If you think to yourself, I can, you have re-entered the realm of fantasy. No, you couldn’t; no, you didn’t. Not even 16 or 17. 18 is doubtful as well. These women wanted to feel powerful over --well, here I enter the murky world of conjecture, since I’m not a child molester-- I’d say power over their own sexuality. The teen age kid is SAFE. He’s not going to tell; she controls the scenario; she controls the act and she doesn’t have to concern herself with his pleasure one bit. This is all about power and the abuse of trust. I’d like to know if any of these teachers were themselves sexually abused (no excuse, but it would explain a few things).
Having said that, I’d like to see some cohesion on the sentencing. The sentences are all over the place. At minimum, I’d like to see their teaching certificates revoked and them on a predator list. Jail time I’m meh about–I don’t see it doing any sexual molester any good. (although having said that, I realize that those assholes who diddle toddlers and babies etc should get jail time–I dunno. It’s such a difficult thing to address). I don’t think that female molesters should get easier sentences than male.
I don’t doubt for a minute that males are less discriminating that females (generally) when it comes to sexual encounters, but I also don’t buy the men are pigs and just want to rut regardless of circumstance/age/position meme either.