You say you thought you were very socially awkward. Were you underestimating yourself? What could have lead to that? How did you check that erroneous self-image and correct it? I ask because I’m 36 and I’m beginning to think that I may be in a similar mindset as you were then.
If they aren’t amenable to the idea, how could it not? You’re putting them in a position where they’re going to have to turn you down, which will make you unhappy and they know it. Presuming they’re not evil, they won’t be happy about being forced to make you unhappy, which would make them feel uncomfortable about being put into that position.
(The above doesn’t really apply if you’re just hitting on total strangers before they get a chance to know or care about you. Which I suppose some people do…)
Unfortunately, at 54 I really haven’t corrected it. Ms. P made the first move, and by that I mean she straight out told me she was interested. I don’t know that I’d do any better if I were suddenly single. Long story short, I got lucky.
Or
3. He’s completely clueless and can’t even tell a woman is interested in him.
True anecdote: when I was young and callow, I was trying to express my interest to a young woman I knew from work. She wasn’t responding - positively or negatively - and finally an exasperated coworker blurted out, “For God’s sake, he’s trying to hit on you. Just say yes or no!”
Unbeknownst to me, there was a different young woman trying to express her interest in me, who couldn’t understand why I wasn’t picking up* her *signals.
Cluelessness, there’s a lot more than of it than you think.
Cluelessness is my middle name, which Ms. P would probably tell you.
I said it before on the dope, but once again:
In my opinion, asking someone out is usually a team effort. One person shows interest, the other responds positively, options are thrown out and a connection is made.
I’m not saying nervously blurting out “will you go out with me?”, from cold, doesn’t happen, or would never be successful.
Just that that’s a bad way to go about it IMO, and not as typical as many seem to imagine.
Anyway, if the asker is defined as the person who actually suggests an activity to do together, then I’ve been asked out by women several times. But it was at the point where we obviously wanted to meet up and it was just a matter of someone suggesting something.
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In my experience, women are more likely to be romantically drawn to traits like initiative, drive, ambition, and confidence. These combined make for that essence called “ballsiness”—which, by its name, we’ve been socialized to associate with masculinity. If a woman’s goal is to select for men who have this quality, she undermines her own mission by doing the asking out; she increases the likelihood of picking a guy who is more passive than what she truly prefers.
As society becomes less restrictive in gender roles, I believe “ballsiness” will become less important as indicator of male worth. And it will also be more acceptable for women to be “ballsy”.
That said, I think there will never be equality in who does the asking out. As long as the strength and size differential puts women at a physical disadvantage to men, women will always have more of a reason to be guarded towards unfamiliar men than the converse. If you put 50 single men in a room with 50 single women, the men will immediately be scouting out whom is the most attractive, approachable, and attainable. In contrast, the women might be doing the same thing * but *on top of that, they’ll also be determining who the hell they need to avoid to ensure they stay safe. Guy in the corner who has been staring you down for 3 minutes straight with an expressionless face? The one over there who keeps draping his arms around women even though their body language screams stop? The guy over there who is giving off some strong Type A vibes? These men probably aren’t dangerous people but the possibility is there, and a woman will be mulling this over in a way that men generally will not. And they very well might be handsome; attractiveness is not their problem.
A woman will probably not approach these men. But if they approach her, and say the right thing that puts her at ease and proves her initial impression was hasty, then the guy might succeed in getting a date with her.
I’m married, so I don’t ask men on “dates”. But I do ask men to dance and have lunch in non-romantic settings.
When I was young and actively dating, I don’t think I ever asked a guy first. But if I were to be on the market again, I’m pretty sure I’d ask men out.
Is that because times have changed, or because I have changed, or just because I’m older and in a different place? Probably some of all three.
With recent societal developments, it has also become a lot more dangerous for a man to interpret a woman as being interested or consenting without a great deal of evidence that she is indeed willing or interested. That makes many men even less willing to act on hints than before. You want to be really sure that a woman is really indicating “yes.”
I did misread you as saying ‘act ugly’ instead of ‘feel ugly’, but epbrown01 explicitly said “I’d say women take being turned down harder men, which is saying something.”. Since we’re not telepathic we can’t really see inside someone’s head to check their emotional state, but there are a small number of men who take rejection badly enough that they end up killing people, more who move to physical assault, and a much larger number who threaten assault or rape, or simply become insulting when rejected. If you think that women are just extremely good at controlling emotions and are getting internally as angry as murderous guys but controlling it better, then that’s your position.
But if we look at the only evidence we have of internal state, that is the words and actions people take in response to rejection, it simply doesn’t support the contention that women take being turned down harder than men. Men who spend time on dating sites usually have one or two instances of a woman flipping out about rejection, and even then it rarely involves threats of assault or rape. Yet women I know who spend time on dating sites tend to use preemptive blocking when turning men down because a response that is at best insulting at at worst a threat of rape or assault is such a common response that they just expect it. Not 100% of the time, but often enough that wiring something like ‘not interested, thanks’ has too high of a risk of turning unpleasant. Same thing with in-person interactions, women tend to do things like give out a fake number (so the guy will not think she rejected him until later) rather than risk a direct confrontation, while I don’t know any men who feel the need to do that, or feel that there is anything unsafe about turning down a woman who asks him out.
You’re sort of forgetting about market value.
Women with visible remaining childbearing potential have, probably for most of the history of humanity, been a scarce and valuable resource. There will always be lots of men around who want them in most situations and in most regions of the world.
So for the women with “market value”, they are getting multiple “offers” for a possible relationship pretty often. Probably several a month, if not several a week or several a day in extreme cases. Women then turn down almost all of these men as they want the best for themselves, as is their role in this.
So the “forever alone” scenario doesn’t really factor in. (and they absolutely have a way to ask a man out, they just don’t do it directly, instead, they dress seductively and hang around him. I’ve seen it and had it happen to me)
In a society where most sex is monogamous (at least temporarily), men of childbearing years are equally scarce and valuable as women.
Huh? Tell that to Mick Jagger. Don’t think there are any women his age bearing children.
Note that all my friends at university agreed pretty much with what I’ve read: man was expected to make a move after the women had clearly indicated that she was interested. That could encompass a range of indications, from eye contact on up. I’d have to say that I probably agree at the bitter end: if a man won’t agree to something after you’ve suggested a range of possible activities, he’s probably just not that into you. (“I’m hungry. I really enjoy movies. I’d like to learn more about sailing. I like hiking. I don’t mind a social drink now and then. Live music is great!”).
This is getting close to my position, which is simply that getting a date is frequently (I would argue usually) a team effort.
If we are going to say that only the actual suggestion of a hook up counts as “asking out” and everything that happened before is just preamble, then I can say I have been asked out several times by women in my life.
It’s funny to think of that, because I am no Chris Hemsworth… But those invitations were not a cold open from nothing, they came organically out of an interaction where both people were showing mutual interest, just like when I am the person who suggests a meet up.
I have done, and usually successfully, but I don’t like it at all. It’s been my experience that guys have a VERY hard time dealing with any invitation they don’t want. Saying “no” is not something they’ve been trained on, so they are rude* and often obsess about it for a long time afterward making any subsequent encounter uncomfortable. So I evolved a series of less overt methods, like “betting him dinner” over some sportsball game or other.
*Which only serves to make me glad I dodged the bullet.
Coming back to this just to say that women get told “no” and “you’re doing it wrong!” all of the time.
Is it possible that gender isn’t a factor in how one deals with rejection? It seems to me that level of self confidence may be just as important. Also, could it be that someone whose level of self-confidence is low may have more trouble in interpreting signals of interest. Some folks, both male and female, are trapped in a vicious circle.
I think that gender is a factor in how one acts in response to rejection, but may not be a factor in how strongly one feels about it. I think men are more likely to react with anger against the rejector, which may be expressed at the rejector; and women more likely to react with embarrassment and anger against themselves, feeling that they’ve done something wrong by asking; though there are of course many exceptions in both groups. And it’s hard to tell how much of the difference in types of action between genders is due to societal influence, though I’m sure societal influence is at least part of it.
I agree that low self-confidence may result in missing signals of interest; I think that’s probably a factor for people of any gender.
Sidenote - this was once a topic on “Family Guy” where Meg asks her Mom if it’s ok to ask a boy out.
The Mom told her yes but said on the side with a hint of arrogance “of course I never had to”.