This is the most ridiculous piece of theistic propoganda I’ve seen yet:
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011004/us/attacks_wtc_cross_1.html
Act of God? Sorry, maybe I missed something, but is this the same God who couldn’t be bothered to save the lives of thousands of people? He decided to throw an “almost upright” cross into the rubble? Sheesh.
Aw, cut 'em some slack. Those poor guys need something down there and if something like that makes them feel even a little better, why begrudge them of it?
Is it rational to believe in God?
Can we prove he exists? Do we have any concrete evidence. No…but…faith…
It doesn’t matter whether it’s logical. God by definition and nature transcends reason and logic. He is just mysterious and “speshul like dat.”
Yeah, right, God couldn’t be bothered. You know that’s what happened, is it? You know the mind of God?
Now I don’t think God put a cross in the rubble, but using the death of these people as evidence of there being no benevolent God is just as much an example of theistic propoganda.
Maybe those people need something to beleive in, something to give them some comfort in such a terrible time. If finding a metal cross in the debrise has given some people a little spiritual lift, then so be it.
Terrible things happen every day. God doesn’t come all those “rescues” either. Maybe there is a reason for what happened, maybe there is not, IMHO.
I predict a deathbed confession from “laborer Frank Silecchia” that he was the hand of god and put the cross there himself; but that it was God who infused him with the superhuman strength to do it.
I don’t this provides any evidence on the existence, or not, of god; but it does show pretty well how emotionally stressed people can quickly descend into silliness in their search for something to make them feel better.
I think the issue in the OP is reasonably. Which is more likely: God put the cross there to remind people to have faith and hope? Or was he simply signing his work?
In general I agree with the OP that this is your typical uber-christian bull. But these people are doing such grim sad work that I can’t begrudge them whatever beliefs they need to make the task bearable.
Along the same lines, a tornado hit downtown Fort Worth last year. One of the two structures it hit hardest was a church and a portion of the roof(steeple, maybe?) was lifted from the church and placed right side up across the street. Members of the church claimed that this showed God was on their side. :rolleyes: What, the tornado heading right for your building and completely destroying it doesn’t indicate the opposite?
At least the people at the WTC aren’t claiming that they’re the “chosen ones” because of this find.
Maybe it’s just me, but so what? The guy said “To me it’s an Act of God.” So you don’t believe it? Big whoop. I’m sure all the workers clearing debris and looking for bodies don’t give a crap that you think it’s ridiculous. Let them have their symbol that give them hope and renewal of faith.
Maybe no concrete evidence of God, but apparently some cast iron evidence…
Oh good grief. To echo Grace, so what? You are trying to call some of the rescuers on the scene “irrational” if they believe this cross was no coincidence? Why the hell do you care? Does it make you feel superior because you know that it’s just some dumb old bits of metal, yet they think it’s something more? Gee, well, give yourself a gold star, then.
Or better yet, just shrug your shoulders, and be glad that they are finding something of solace. They are down their busting their butts doing something pretty grueling and miserable, and yet you want to find them “irrational” for this little thing? Give me a break.
I have to agree. I do not begrudge these people their symbol, if it genuinely helps their state of mind.
These people are doing a tough job, and one that can only get more grisly as time goes on. Some reports say they’re less than 10% done with the cleanup, to say nothing of sorting the debris.
I also don’t begrudge peoples’ use of “God Bless America”, since I know it’s more an expression of good will and feeling, than proselytizing.
That having been said, I tend to wonder… with two buildings each two-hundred-plus feet square and one thousand three hundred feet tall and encompassing 200,000 tons of steel, most of which are steel girders of various lengths, bolted and welded to each other at right angles to form countless Tees and corners… Is it any wonder that a fragment resembling the Christian cross was found?
Personally I’d have probably been more surprised had such an icon NOT been found.
I just hope that it isn’t used as the de facto memorial sculpture. There were more casualties than just Christians, y’know.
If they want to embrace it, fine. Me, I just figure there were thousands of steel-beam intersections in the towers, just by sheer architectural requirements alone.
This is right up there with the girl who supposedly avowed her faith in God during the Columbine high school shooting (the general consensus IIRC is that she didn’t, but enough folks have accepted her as a martyr that it doesn’t matter)
It seems to me jongleur is merely pointing out that this is another piece of glurge. And good on him!
Rather than ridiculing the valiant workers on the site, I consider he is pointing out the offensive side to this sentimentalising of religion and coincidence.
Folks, we meet here under the banner of fighting ignorance. I doubt that that jews and muslims who lost their lives in this disaster, and their grieving families, are served by elevating an incident like this beyond what it is.
Fine for the worker who found it, and for those who want to remember their fallen comrades, but it isn’t newsworthy, it isn’t spiritually sound, it proves nothing, it was a coincidence.
Redboss
That’s a load of crap. His OP is titled “How can any rational person believe that God placed a cross in the rubble?” If someone thinks it was an act of God, then they MUST be be irrational. If that’s not ridiculing the workers, I don’t know what is.
It’s not newsworthy to you, but the press is going to report anything they consider newsworthy. And, frankly, these workers aren’t finding any survivers to lift their spirits. This cross does. You don’t think it’s spiritually sound? I disagree. These people take breaks and use the time to meditate or pray AND it makes them feel better.
We get the picture. You don’t believe it’s an act of God. You believe it’s all a load of hooey. That’s fine. These people have a faith that gives them comfort. I think it’s great that they can find it in a cross amid a mass of devastation.
Iron cross? Looks like an attempt to frame the Luftwaffe to me.
I plan on starting a new thread, called “How Can Any Compassionate Person Deny Spiritual Comfort to the Ground Zero Workers?”
I would be interested in seeing your argument in support of your statement, which I find to be, well, irrational. Care to bring it to Great Debates?
Grace - you go, girl!
I think it’s stupid to display the cross. The whole building was made with fucking crosses, as most are. It can never truly be regarded as an all-inclusive symbol of remembrance for those lost because it’s a freaking cross. It is clearly an exclusive symbol and considering that the attack was made by Muslim terrorists I think it is unwise to foster any inter-religious tensions, no matter how frivolous they might be.
In aggreance with what Doc Nickel said, what about all of the Jews and Muslims that were lost? Are they to be forgotten just because they don’t comprise the majority of those killed or the majority of the rescue workers?
If they are going to display the cross they should at least display a Star of David somewhere in the immediate vicinity, not to mention a symbol of Islam(even though it would probably be immediately defaced by a bunch of ignorant dumbfucks).
My $0.02.
I keep on hoping to see a smiley or something - something to indicate you are being facetous. But I guess not. Amazing.
Who the hell cares what you think about whether it is an “inclusive symbol”, or that it is “unwise to foster any inter-religious tensions”?!?! Shit, get a grip! This is about these particular workers, doing a miserable, wretched, and emotionally draining job.
Do you really think they give a shit if you are concerned about your concerns about an “inclusive symbol”? Well, why don’t you go down to Ground Zero then, and preach to them all about it? I’m sure they’ll appreciate all your concerns. You, sitting comfy in front of your computer screen - yeah - you have all the proper insights - you ought to tell them what is appropriate. You are more enlightened than they are. Yeah. You tell 'em all about it.
Give me a freakin’ break. This was a spontanious thing that people are finding solace in - but you want to micromanage it, and take away some small solace these poor souls have? These poor souls who are doing something SO miserable? Something YOU ARE NOT doing? And you want to begrudge them their little crumbs of solace anyway? Boy, the milk of generousity and kindness just flows in your veins.
And I’ll second a “Go Grace!” sentiment.