How can any rational person believe that God placed a cross in the rubble?

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
41

Yeah. That’s a big mass grave. Crosses on graves are tacky. I mean, who would ever put a cross on top of someone’s grave? :rolleyes:

Even as an atheist, I can think of nothing more appropriate than that cross. It is a powerful symbol of rebirth coming from death. It shows that our faith still is strong even in the aftermath of such a great evil. Yeah, it’s not the most inclusive symbol in the world, and it’s really more likely to have been a simple coincidence than an act of God, no matter how you look at it. But, it’s there, and it’s inspiring people, and I see no reason to fuck with them.

42

This, and the Pit thread, has been kind of irritating. I wish we could separate the emotions from the facts. I feel like my opinion on the matter has already been condemned – so I’ve been hesitant to offer it. That is not a comfortable feeling.

The facts are that two pieces of iron were found that are in the shape of what Christians regard as a holy symbol.
The emotions seem to be, anybody who doesn’t agree that that was an act of God is an evil asshole.

I don’t understand why I, an atheist, am not allowed to say that the cross that is being presented to me through news stories as an act of God is actually just two perpendicular I-beams. It doesn’t seem to me to be too unusual to have found something like that (there must have been thousands of joints in those two buildings put together like that). And to me it sounds an awful lot like, “I found the face of the Virgin Mary in a blueberry muffin.”

I don’t want to be lumped in as “one of those not wishing comfort to the workers.” Tell the truth, if they find comfort in it, cool. If they found comfort in a baloney sandwich I wouldn’t deny that to them either. I know they have a shitty, unenviable job to do, and they need whatever they can get to get throught it, but you can’t expect people to agree with ideologies just to appease.

Now, I wouldn’t walk down to Ground Zero and announce “how stupid all you silly Christians are being”, but if asked about it, I’m not going be kow-towed into agreeing that a full-fledged “old testament” miracle has occurred either.

43

I think that’s exactly the correct reaction of an atheist (of whom I’m one).

To be clear: I do not believe that it was an act of God. Even if I believed that there were a God, I would not believe that He would fail to intervene with an exercise of free will that kills 6,000+ innocents and then intervene to drop a cross into the rubble to make people feel better about it.

But too bad on my feelings. I’ve been to the site. I’ve seen the eyes of those who have to go there day after day, whose job has changed slowly from rescues that never happened to recovery of bodies to recovery of tiny scraps that may give a family something to bury. If they want to cling onto this thing, I sure as heck ain’t gonna stop them, and I’m not going to go out of my way to call them on it.

Oh, and as a semi-factual aside: Of course crosses are part of making buildings. What apparently made this one stand out were that it happened to be cut at about the ratio of the traditional Christian cross and that it was found in a semi-upright position.

44

Unless I misread something, nobody here is saying it was an Act of God. We’re all pretty much in agreement that it is just a coincidence that a piece of rubble looks like a cross. We’re not disagreeing on that point.

45

If it makes you feel any better, Jack, I feel pretty much exactly as you do.

Now, while I have no desire to defend the ugly vitriol that’s been spewed here by Sultan Kinkari, there’s a small part of me that thinks I understand what he’s feeling, but doing such a piss poor job of expressing.

When I hear how finding a “cross” amongst the rubble of the World Trade Center is being touted as a sign from G-d, there’s a part of me that’s angry about that presumption. Why? Because there’s an implication (albeit, I’m certain it’s not intended), that G-d only cares about Christians because He only sent a symbol of their faith in Him. IE: Jews don’t matter. G-d showed up and reaffirmed the faith of Christians and fuck the Jews and Moslems.

Of course I would never wish to deny anyone anything that makes getting through that ugly job easier. But to claim that finding a couple of iron cross beams still intact (as that’s how they were put there in the first place) is a sign of your G-d, feels to me as if my G-d (who did not have a “son” who was nailed to a cross) doesn’t care about me - doesn’t want me to know that He’s there. (And yes, I’m aware of the debate that’s been raging in the Pit that they’re one and the same G-d, but as I said, the G-d I know would never make His presence known to me in the form of a cross!)

And I think that’s where Sultan’s anger is coming from. We Jews feel insulted, even if the insult was completely unintentional. Does that make any sense, or am I just too distraught by all that’s been happening and I’m just rambling incoherently?

Jeg elsker dig, Thomas

46

That’s not true, Arden. That was the whole point of the OP - the fact that people are saying it was an act of G-d, as was specifically stated in the linked article…

47

I know what the article said. What I said was that we weren’t saying it was an Act of God. We were defending the worker’s right to take comfort wherever they can get it right now.

48

Even if a big scrap metal Star of David was found in the rubble, amazing as that would be, I would say “Haul it off to Jersey.” I don’t think it’s right to have the symbol of one religion, whichever it may be, dominating the scenery of the site where people of several denominations lost their lives or are sifting through the rubble.

49

Well, since you aren’t in charge of such things, and your assent is not needed to display any religious symbols or anything else at the site, I guess you’ll just have to live with it. Or just ignore it. It hasn’t exactly been forced upon you personally.

I honestly can’t see why you care. It makes no sense to me. One would think that it was on your front lawn, or somehow directly affecting you to judge by your vehemence to the idea.

50

Shayna, I don’t think you should take it so personally. It’s not about Jews, it’s just about some people finding significance in something. Whether or not you (as a Jew) find any significance in it is…insignificant. No, I’m not saying that your feelings are insignificant - I’m just saying that it’s not about you (or me) or anyone - other than the people who think this is a big deal. Which in this case, are some exhausted and drained rescue workers. That’s all there is to it.

I’m not Catholic, I don’t believe there is any significance in Holy Water, but if someone wants to bless the metal “cross” with Holy Water, more power to 'em. It means nothing to me, but hey - whatever they want to do, no skin off my nose. If they were to see the Blessed Virgin Mary in an oil spot in the wreckage, more power to 'em. It’s helping them. Doesn’t do a bit for me - but, whatever. Who am I to rain on their parade?

They aren’t thinking, “Well, we’d better not find significance in this, we’d better not make a big deal about this, because it might offend people of other faiths.” They are just finding something that is helpful to them, and going with it.

I think that some of us (not you specifically, Shayna) are having a problem understanding that just because we don’t get it, that no one else should either. Or rather, if we don’t find significance in it, or think it’s a lot of hooey, that no one else is intitled to either. Or, if we feel “left out”, that means that no one else can feel included. Because, God Forbid anyone not get it, or feel left out. No no, we can’t have that! Better to have NO ONE have anything that gives them solace. Yeah, that’s more like it. Just yank everything away, unless 100% of the populace all universally is OK with it. Because the alternative (that some people find solace with some things during this truly horrific time) is not acceptable. Which I think is unfortunate. And frankly, self-absorbed and selfish.

The truth is, most things won’t provide solace to everyone. But that doesn’t mean that the ones who are getting something out of these little bits of comfort should be denied. Merely because people like Sultan (who is sitting, all warm and clean and comfy at home) are “bothered”? No, I don’t think so.

51

Duh. I think I said the very same thing in one concise sentence, “Of course I would never wish to deny anyone anything that makes getting through that ugly job easier.”

I know you didn’t say me, specifically, but you didn’t exclude me either, and I never said or implied anything of the sort.

Never said that, either.

Nor that - or anything even remotely like that.

Where the HELL did all this come from? Let me say this a little louder and a little slower for you: I. DIDN’T. SAY. ANYTHING. OF. THE. KIND.

Too bad this isn’t in the pit or I’d let you know in no uncertain terms exactly how much respect I’ve just lost for you. I am as entitled to my feelings about the implication that G-d would manifest his presence in the form of a CHRISTIAN symbol as you and anyone else is to find solace in the same. And again, I NEVER DENIED ANYONE THE RIGHT TO FIND SOLACE IN IT, I merely expressed MY OPINION that finding a CHRISTIAN symbol in the rubble is NOT a sign from G-d TO ME - which is what the OP WAS ALL ABOUT.

I DIDN’T SAY THAT ANYONE SHOULD BE DENIED.

Have I made that clear yet?

52

Shayna. Calm down. I didn’t mean you. I did realize that you weren’t trying to deny anyone. I can read. I read where you said that the first time. That’s why I said “not you specifically, Shayna.” That’s what I meant. Not you. Not Shayna. That’s why I said “people like Sultan” were “bothered”. Not “people like Shayna”. People like Sultan. Got it?

The first paragraph was directed more at you, the rest was not. The rest was directed at people who wanted to DENY these workers their solace. Not you.

53

Actually the OP wasn’t about whether the cross was an act of God. The OP questioned how any rational person could believe it was an Act of God. Only one person claimed it was an Act of God and that was the man who found it.

After that the thread has pretty much been a big So What?! It appears to me that everyone else, myself included, seems to think it’s a bunch of metal that resembles a cross and gives comfort to some workers.

54

So SULTAN was banned, correct? Now that’s an act of whatever God that throws the switches in anyone’s world.

Which of the 'Dopers coined the phraise “bat noodling something or other” when it came to describe the ultimate fuckwad that needed a serious smacking? I forget but there I said it, all Pitlike… sorry.

55

This is untrue and unfair and frankly makes you look like you haven’t been paying attention to this thread or the thread in the Pit. In fact, the only person who even mentioned a belief that it was an act of God was the man in the article. Unless I missed it, I have not seen any Doper even imply that they believe this cross came from God, let alone that “anyone who doesn’t believe it was an act of God is an evil asshole”. Kindly point me to the thread you are referring to because it certainly isn’t this one or the one in the Pit.

I know that there are others just like me who believe that cross is nothing more than a hunk of metal that happened to land upright and believe that other religions have a right to be a little offended, but who still has the utmost respect for the workers and the small comfort they have found in this cross. I believes that there is a time and a place for religious debate and a time and place to give opposing views the respect of silent disagreement.

I do not believe that this cross has divine powers anymore than I believe angels comfort my step-mom in her grief for my little brother (see the Pit thread if you want more detail). What I do believe, is that just like my step-mom, the recovery workers should not be ridiculed for finding some small comfort that helps them cope with horrific experiences that most of us will thankfully never know.

Unfortunately, creeps like Sultan (toodle-loo Punkins) haven’t grown enough brain cells needed to comprehend a basic respect for fellow human beings.

56

I tried to word my initial post as respectfully as I could, considering the mood of the thread. If instead I merely said, “That cross story is total bullshit,” I would have been flayed alive, and had fourteen Pit threads devoted to me.

While I don’t share the late, not-so-great Sultan’s views, I understand his (warped as it may be) reasoning. I get the overwhelming feeling that anything said that goes against what a Christian wants to hear about it is going to be attacked hard. Not very First-Amendment-ish, if you ask me.

However, I am not so ignorant as to yell “Fire” in a crowded theater either.

57

There’s a big difference between saying:

“It doesn’t do anything for me, as far as I’m concerned it’s a pile of bullshit, but if someone else gets something out of it, more power to 'em”

and

“It’s a pile of bullshit, and not only should it be removed so that NO ONE can enjoy it, but anyone who does get something out of it is an idiot.”

I doubt anyone would “flay you alive” for the first statement. It’s the second statement that is problematic for a lot of us.

58

Moderator’s Notes: Enough. We’ve established that this likely was not an act of God, we’ve established that some found it inspirational, we’ve established that others found it (or something) offensive, we’ve established that some are willing to allow others to find inspiration wherever they may and even that some are willing to respect what others find inspirational.

All that’s left is to find exactly how petty the bickering can be. And we ain’t going any farther down that road in this forum.

Thread closed.