They have The Dick Van Dyke Show in Australia?
People change, though, especially when the phase of life shifts, from college to working, or from DINK to parenthood. He may well have not even really known he had these expectations when they were young and childless and dating, since he wasn’t using his parent’s model then, but his own. It may have only been after the kids were born that he realized that the home he wanted for that stage of his life looked a lot like the home he grew up in.
Also, she may have changed, agreeing with a lot of his ideas when it was all theoretical, and perhaps even enjoying those roles at first, only to find over time that it isn’t as satisfying or meaningful as she thought and that she wants something different.
I think we agree that the solution here isn’t unilaterally deciding the guy is just an ass and getting him to accept that about himself. It’s more complicated than that. But people can and do change as they age, and that doesn’t mean that they ever lied, nor does it mean their partner wasn’t paying attention.
I agree with DianaG. I came from a Dick VanDyke family. Taking care of a household is a full time job and if Daddy want’s to pay for it he can pony up the dough. That’s assuming Mommy want’s the job.
There’s a huge difference in life style between his grandparent’s day and his current situation. When I was growing up it was a luxury to have a 25" color TV. Owning 2 TV’s was unheard of. We didn’t have: microwave ovens, cell phones, cable TV, VCR’s, DVD’s, GPS’s, Computers, the Internet, or the products that feed these amenities. We didn’t have air conditioning or a 2nd automobile. We rarely ate out. None of those costs were included in daily life. I thought I’d died and gone to heaven when my parents got air conditioning.
When I was young my father car-pooled so my mom would have a car part of the week. We had a single party-line phone (shared with another house). Our end tables were folding TV trays (I still have them with the matching lamps). Kids played with the same type of toys their parents played with.
My mother ran the house. Children went to bed early, not because they needed the sleep, but because the parents needed a break from their jobs.
Those days are gone. I wish they weren’t, but they are. My mother was a professional housekeeper. Many of the skills she had are missing today.
What would be considered opulent wealth in the 1960’s is the standard for today. Multi-car families are the norm. A modern “station wagon” has air conditioning, power/heated seats, Stereo, individual movie screens, GPS’s, powered doors, and satellite connections. By itself it is more luxurious than any home I lived in as a child. In fact, the modern SUV is more opulent than the homes of the wealthiest people.
Today’s lifestyle cannot be maintained on the average salary of a single person. This guy doesn’t have a clue and probably won’t until he loses what he has.
My only advise is for this guy to switch roles for a month.
The OP lives in Australia. Prostitution is legal there.
My guess is that there’s a lot of room for compromise & for the relationship to work out, but only if the guy’s desires are taken seriously*. The OP apparently can’t do that & therefore can’t help.
*Not suggesting they must be fulfilled.
Another vote for “If it’s a problem – and it may not be, for them – it’s their problem, let them sort it out.”
They all made pretty good dough, too, and their wives were home all day. Plus, despite whatever comedic problems occurred in the household, they loved and respected their wives and always seemed to enjoy the time spent with them. I can’t imagine any of those guys giving their wives a hard time for not submitting to sex on demand.
Sounds like your buddy is wanting to skim the cream off the top of the fifties without really doing his part.
You can’t convince him of anything that will help because he’s a pigheaded a-hole.
Someday some event will occur that will open his eyes or it won’t. You won’t ever be able to explain it to him if he’s so dense he can’t see it on his own.
Prostitution is legal in some states. Not all of them.
So what’s the situtation in Queensland?
Wow… just… wow. I can’t believe some people still think like this. First thing I would do is explain very simply that although he’s a good guy, and a great friend, that when he expects things to be the way he expects them to be, that he seems like a total ass. Ask questions and say things to make him respond with “That’s woman’s work.” then point out how horrible it sounds to say that. If he disagrees, make him understand that there is no way in hell his marraige will last if he doesn’t change his attitude. If he persists, then be harsh. Call him an asshole, straight up, and be serious about it. Raise a big stink over it and make it threaten your friendship if necessary. If the possibility of losing a friend doesn’t snap him out of it, then he will surely get what he deserves when his wife leaves him.
To be honest, my husband I have worked out a similar “1950s” arrangement, in which he is the primary wage-earner, and I am the homemaker and stay-at-home-mom (although I do work from home). I call him every day to see when he will be home, so dinner will be ready within 20 minutes or so of his arrival. I handle 95% of the household chores. I schedule all appointments (doctor, dentist, etc.) I even lay out his sweats/shorts/T-shirts/slippers some days, because I know what he’s been working on all day, and he’s tired and sore and wants to relax. Yes, I might even pour him a glass of iced tea while I finish dinner. I do this because I want to, and because I appreciate what he does for our family.
He doesn’t demand it, though. At the very least, I get a “Thanks, honey.” Other days, I get swept off my feet and soundly kissed. 
If I weren’t amenable to this situation, however, it would be more problematic. We discussed it long before we married, and we both agreed that we liked the mom-at-home structure if at all possible. It might change in a few years, when the kids go to school, but for now, that “traditional” family arrangement works nicely for us.
Nothing wrong with this, as long as he doesn’t expect her to work FT and do all that crap. It’s not “50’s”- it’s been going on since Og the Caveman killed that Mammoth and drug it home. However, I know of a very successful woman who has her husband do all that while she works, and that’s fine too. They are both happy with the “reversed roles”, and I wouldn’t dream of sticking my nose in or offering un-asked for advice.
He’s not being an ass at all, you are being a busybody sticking your nose when you have no business. Unless, of course- he/she/they asked you for your advice? :dubious:
If the OP asks what else he can do for his friend, I think he already has done 80% of what he can do. People do care what those around them think, and the OP has made clear he thinks the friends attitude and sense of entitlement needs to change. More emphasis on the “your 'tude is assholish” might make the friend only defensive.
If the OP might do more, he might talk some more in depth with his friend about how he and others he knows, divides household tasks, and what the advantages of those arrangements are. He might even talk about underlying fears and assumptions, like the ideas about masculinity the friend has.
But if Martini and his friend don’t have much of a talking friendship, that might prove difficult.
:dubious: yourself.
This, from the OP:
"…and due to a bizarre series of events my wife and I have been spending a large amount of our spare time helping them work these difficulties out and keep their marriage from disintegrating."
[bolding mine]
I’d point out that a number of the 50’s housewives became 70’s divorcees. The way I see it, it depends on which of 3 reasons he is doing this.
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He thinks this is how his wife shows she loves him. Tell him that love goes 2 ways, and he needs to show love for his wife too.
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He doesn’t think it’s that hard. Switching roles for a good amount of time, at least a month, is the best shot here.
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He’s just an ass who wants to be king of the homestead. Keep the guest room linens clean. Nothing else you can do.
All of this said, you’ve told him what you think, not to mention his wife and your wife have presumably done the same. There comes a time when it’s up to him to listen to what you’re saying.
Thanks for the replies, everyone!
I should clarify a few things: Yes, my wife and I have been asked to help, both by my friend and his wife (they came to us separately). We’re not sticking our nose in uninvited here.
His wife is very unhappy about the situation, and says that it wasn’t that way when they got married. It’s been a comparatively recent development, not helped by the rapid increase in the cost of living here. Their children are starting Primary School and there are a whole host of additional expenses there, and their budget was already stretched pretty tightly, and suddenly they’ve got NO money for anything at all, and he comes home from working 50-60 hours a week and wants to know why dinner isn’t ready and how come the kids haven’t had a bath yet etc. Most of what Manda JO has posted is a pretty accurate assessment of the situation, incidentally.
This is a good idea, and an avenue I’m going to pursue. I keep trying to take him out for a round of golf but we don’t always have the same days off. I’ve already tried telling him that there’s nothing unmanly about
That’s my personal feeling, actually- he just doesn’t get it, or he feels that his views are more valid than his wife’s for some reason.
The good news is that they’re both getting professional marriage counselling now, but I’m not sure how much good it’s doing…
It might not do any good, but how about, even playfully, giving them one of these books?
From the clarification and my limited understanding of the situation, it sounds like the guy is primarily taking his stress over money out on his wife. Maybe he’s holding in a lot more worry than either of them realize and needs to find more constructive ways of working that out rather than bitching at her that the kids aren’t bathed or that dinner isn’t waiting. Or maybe just shutting up and jumping in will take care of that stress for him - action is always much more soothing (to me, anyway) than sitting around complaining.
Both parenting and marriage are a partnership - neither should be designed as a support system for just one person. Yes, if she has more time, it probably makes sense for her to do more or the housework, but she obviously has other concerns, too. And two people working a bare minimum of 30 hours a week does not make for a situation conducive to having just one person do the housework.
Out of curiosity, do you have any idea as to how both parties present themselves when they argue about this? Does the wife (or the husband, for that matter) get hysterical or are both relatively calm? I think a role reversal might be a good idea, but I also think that rational discussion is highly underrated and that both should carefully consider how they’re framing their questions (or accusations), what their tone of voice is (screaming, calmly talking, crying) and how they can have a controlled, better thought-out discussion.
For example, having the husband say, “You never bathe the kids before I get home/have dinner ready for me/insert other issue. Why not? Don’t I deserve that?” is a lot more negative than, “It would make me feel really good if a couple nights a week you could try to bathe the kids before I get home or have dinner started. I know you’re busy, but I’m really stressed and knowing that the kids are clean and dinner’s going to be ready will realy help me relax.” Of course, that still puts the onus on the wife.
But the husband should also be willing to help. So if the wife, instead of shrieking, “I do everything for you - I cook, I clean, I take care of the kids all the time while all you do is sit on the damn couch with your hand down your pants like Al Bundy!” could say, “Hey, if I have the kids clean and dinner going when you get home a couple nights a week, do you think you could reciprocate by grabbing the groceries on your way home and helping me out by cleaning the dishes while I put the kids to bed? I’ll make a list for you - but if you could stop, that’d be awesome.”
For what it’s worth, the cleaning/cooking/childcare issue is the primary thing that starts our fights. In my case, my husband had servants at his beck and call until he came to the US for college, so he really just doesn’t think about all that stuff until suddenly he realizes the place looks like a disaster area. Then he complains and I get huffy because I’ve been doing my damndest and asking for help, but since we both work full time, neither one of us will get a lot done without the other to help. So lately we’ve just instituted the 30-minute rule: we both have to clean for 30 minutes a day. Doesn’t matter what it is - just set a timer and do it for 30 minutes. You’ll get a ton done. Marriage is all about compromise and learning to live with someone else. It’s not easy, especially when your expectations change, but both parties have to change their actions to evolve with changing circumstances.
Well, Ward was known for being pretty hard on the Beaver.