The title sums it up. I noticed this dynamic in my own relationship. But also in many threads where (usually) males Dopers married to women were hurt and indignant about it. The men said they did their part of the chores, only to have their wives get angry at them because she felt he had done an inadequate job. So she still had to re-do it. Often, the wife got even more angry, because she felt this was a ploy for the guy to get our from under doing that chore permanently, by showing permanent incompetence and/or too low standards.
We had this issue early on in our marriage - we tried to split the chores 50-50, but quickly found that when I cleaned, she-who-must-be-obeyed would often re-clean. So I cooked, and she cleaned and we both thought the other had the short end of the stick and were happy
grimpixie’s solution is a good one; when someone, like my brother, simply doesn’t see the crud (c’mon, he works in construction, she’s a doctor: of course they don’t have the same definition of “clean”!), the other part needs to accept that yeah, he simply doesn’t. Another solution involves the person who does something best being willing and patient enough to teach and the other one being willing and patient enough to learn, but this can take longer.
My sister in law couldn’t cook when she got married because her mother is unable to let anybody “help” in the kitchen; this has led to problems with the Nephew as well, because he loves helping Mom and Dad in the kitchen but Grandma doesn’t let him. If your husband isn’t interested in learning whatever, he won’t learn it, but if he’s willing and you’re unable to teach him, do you think you’ll be able to teach your children better? (Reverse roles where appropriate)
My relationship is vice-versa; he’s very prone to refolding clothes I’ve put away, which makes me feel a bit cross and inadequate. I know he’s not doing it to make me feel bad, though, so we usually aim for him to just be the one to put them away in the first place.
We’ve also hit on the I-cook-he-washes-up solution where we both feel like we’re doing the easy job!
I think the obvious solution would be to talk about it when things are calm.
Since February I’ve basically become a housewife and have taken on all of the chores and vast majority of cooking. Before that we were both shitty housekeepers and would occasionally get into arguments about the mess. His thought process was that he knew he was slacking and didn’t feel the need to discuss what he was already aware of - he just needed to talk about MY end of it (“we aren’t talking about ME here” was something he regularly said). All that did was come off like him laying all of the blame on me, so rather than discuss solutions like adults I’d get defensive and we’d fight. After awhile we sat down when he wasn’t annoyed by the mess and I wasn’t defensive and we could talk about how we both sucked. We weren’t successful at finding a solution long-term (until I lost my job), but we at least stopped fighting and were able to actually get across to the other what the problem was.
If the guy ISN’T deliberately slacking in order to get away with not helping out, then they need to sit down and talk about why she thinks he’s being such a shit and figure out a solution (or talk about how he IS being a shit and needs to help out if it’s a deliberate ploy). Maybe she just needs to accept that her way isn’t the ONLY way to do a chore (did he REALLY do it badly?), maybe he really did do a piss-poor job, maybe both. If they can’t agree on how something should be done, then I guess she gets to do it (since she’d do it anyway) and they can figure out another way for him to contribute.
For our situation, losing my job was probably the best thing that has happened in a while. He works from home, so I get to hang out with him more and take care of the house (which keeps us both happy) and I help him with his work, like an unofficial assistant. Obviously that won’t be the solution for everyone, but it’ll be hard to figure out how to fix your problem if you can’t honestly talk to each other. I’d have a hard time living with someone I truly believed was being so lazy and dishonest that they were really trying to get away with not contributing to the household. I might have a harder time living with someone that attributed motives to me that weren’t there and wouldn’t believe otherwise.
So what if they won’t take the time to learn? I’m more than willing to teach, but whenever I say, “Hun, you’re scrubbing the counters with a dirty sponge that I know has raw chicken juices on it. Would you please use a clean washcloth and some hot soapy water?” … but he still does that same thing next time, and the time after, so I end up doing it behind him.
I know, I’ve got OCD, so that makes it a little harder on the both of us, but I’ve been working hard at letting him fold his clothes the way he wants, not being so anal about organization, etc. But some things I can’t let go… like when I know he’s wiping salmonella all over the counters or “cleaning” by moving all the papers and junk from one room to another, but not putting anything actually away…
My husband knows I have my quirks, and he just lets me have them. Someone who came into our house would think I wait on him hand and foot, bringing him food, taking away his plate, etc., but he knows I prefer it, because I am just OCD enough that I don’t want him putting the dishes in the dishwasher because I like the way I do it. Yes, it is his kitchen too, but I get nervous when people are watching me in the kitchen. When I do the laundry, he doesn’t like the way I hang up his shirts, so I lay them flat on the bed and he hangs them up. What do I care? They’re his shirts. If I hang them up and he “has to re-do it,” who is it benefiting? Why argue about such meaningless stuff when we can just accommodate each other?
If you can apportion tasks such that each person has clear areas of responsibility they’re happy with, that’s probably best.
But some things inevitably have to be split. I think there’s a big thing of “you actually need to talk to each other about what you’re thinking, and explain, even if it’s INCONCEIVABLE to you that the other person doesn’t ‘get it’”
If A thinks B is being over-fussy about something, they need actually agree whether to do it or not, somehow, not just have A pretend to do it, and do a have-assed job. If B thinks A just isn’t trying, they need to actually say so, not assume A is passive-aggressively saying “I don’t care what you think, if you care, you do the chore” and do it again, and then secretly hate A.
This leads to conversations where BOTH people think they’re doing ALL of the chore, and BOTH feel unfairly put upon!
Of course, horribly passive-aggressive sniping DOES seem to work for many people, so maybe my dislike of it is just my personality, I don’t know.
Both people in a relationship need to adjust their standards. If one person has to have a house that is sterile at all times (for example) then there is no way for the other person to meet that standard. So it isn’t just about getting the lazy partner to do more work, the partner with the higher requirements needs to examine those requirements and perhaps make some realistic adjustments or just do the job herself.
I will never be able to wash clothes up to my wife’s standards. Each article is a precious treasure that must be laundered carefully in a unique way. Therefore she does all the laundry and any opinion I have on the matter I keep to myself. She will never be able to paint properly; can’t do it right and I can’t stand looking at the results. What’s the point of fighting about it when I can do the job better in a tenth of the time?
Nope. The only thing he’s just as good or even better at then I am is taking care of our toddler. (okay, and keeping the house’s electronics running and up to date, but that is from self-interest)
So I do half of the childcare and 85 % of all the other chores. I do groceries, cook two meals every day, (toddler and adults), clean up, and either organize or do all errands and all repairs, and take care of all the inflow and outflow of stuff in our house. Thank god we have a cleaning lady who also does laundry.
It wouldn’t even mind so much if he would appreciate it more. But what gets me is that he thinks he does a fine job of everything. Sure, he can cook; which means rotating the same four stir-fry dishes made from pre-cut and pre-packaged ingredients. Cooking, for him, is opening three packs and stri-frying them together. Applause, or something.
And yes, he can do the grocery shopping, but he will forget about five crucial ingredients and poo-pooh those away, so I have to check up all the groceries to see what he forgot so I can put it on the shopping list again.
When ads on a dating site say: “I want a trustworthy, responsible man”, I always wonder if they mean a man who won’t stray sexually, or a man who will take good care of grocery list. I think more then one woman means the latter.
See, there’s the rub. Are her standards indeed to high or does she simply want the instructions on the label to be followed, so, washed with similar colours, spots pre-treated, the right detergent and the right washer programme? That sounds normal to me.
Some guys seem to think they are doing a bang-up job doing laundry if they just throw everything unsorted in the laundry, add way to much detergent, chooseany old programme, and forget the laundry is still wet in the washer for a day or so afterwards.
We solved the laundry issue when the kids were 10ish by instituting an “everyone washes their own clothes” solution. It took several weeks to train the kids and the husband on how to do their own, but the next person waiting in line to use the machines drove everyone to not leave stuff lying around.
For everything else we’ve gone to the those who are most concerned and most skilled. He unloads the dishwasher, I load it. We both shop and spend a couple hours on the weekend preparing the vegetables so we’ll actually eat them through the week. He’s actually now getting to the point where he’ll suggest items for dinner, occasionally relieving me of the chore I hate the most - deciding.
Vacuuming is the most unusual I think. I vacuum, he takes the dogs out so they are not valiantly defending me from the roaring monster. I get the easy job in that breakdown.
Well, if you really feel you do most things better than he does, and he’s satisfied with the job he does - and the job he does is at least adequate, then you’ve got two choices: a) do the thing yourself, or b) accept that it will not get done to your standard.
But more importantly, if you choose a), you have to do it for your own sake, and not expect his appreciation for the extra effort you’ve put in. In many cases, he won’t appreciate it, because what you see as “doing it right”, he may see as “overdoing it”. Take cooking for example. You said it yourself: “Cooking, for him, is opening three packs and stri-frying them together.” So it may be that in his mind, anything beyond that is just gilding the lily, and therefore, it’s perfectly reasonable for him to expect (and give) the same appreciation for endless reruns of Stir-Fry #2 as for your lovingly prepared lasagna with homemade noodles.
And the thing is, you’re both right. Yes, your meal is arguably better tasting, more appealing, etc. But his serves the same essential purpose: to get everyone fed. So you have to decide, for each task, whether it’s worth it to you, and you alone, to have your higher standard met.
The groceries are a slightly different thing, because if he forgets crucial items, then he’s not really doing an adequate job. Rather than helping, he’s acutally preventing you from cooking. But again, is it that you can’t cook *anything *until you have those items, or that you can’t cook the specific things you’d like to make? If it’s the former, it’s perfectly reasonable for him to go immediately back and get them, but if it’s the latter, there’s really no harm done in waiting to cook that special item until after the next shopping trip. If there’s an actual physical shopping list, though, why can’t he do what most people do, and cross items off the list when he puts them in the cart?
I have higher standards than my husband on several things. Loading the dishwasher and stacking the dishes in the cupboard are two things that he will never figure out how to do “right”. It used to frustrate me to no end to find dishes piled loosely in the washer, and later, crammed into the cupboard every which way. I realized that it really doesn’t matter. There are usually clean dishes ready for me when I need them, and that’s really the point of the whole exercise. But at the same time, this was not something I could just let go. So now when I find the dishwasher or cupboards loaded wrong, I redo them, and find it satisfying, rather than frustrating.
Does it matter? Is it so hard to believe that one of us is more meticulous about laundry than the other or does it always have to come down to men are too lazy to do work properly? Plenty of men actually do real work on real projects that are completed successfully so this tired old idea that we are all too lazy to do things properly is obviously false. Maybe the man you are talking about is perfectly satisfied with the results of his laundry method? Does he wear a lot of silk or cashmere? I agree that would be a problem using his method.
Is there any way he could do more of the child care? If these are the cards you’re dealt, I don’t know what else to suggest.
Like Heart of Dorkness, I have a hubby who doesn’t always do things the way I’d do them; for instance, he insists on being the one to take the garbage out but he doesn’t put a new liner in the can. Ever. If I take the garbage out he pouts. So, I’ve learned to let it go, just put a liner in the can and go on with my life.
I think a whole hell of a lot of your problem is right in that first sentence–“stop nagging” implies that she’s been nagging, which means you’ve been refusing or putting off or getting around to whatever it is for a while now. That’s gonna cause trouble, no matter how well or ill you ultimately do the chore. If you’re going to half-ass something, half-ass it the first time she asks and save both of you a lot of stress and aggravation. She won’t have to nag you, you won’t have to be nagged, and you’ll get bonus points for being willing to help counteract the points you lose by half-assing the job so any fights you have about it will be less frequent and less acrimonious.
I mean, think about how you’d view a similar situation with a coworker. There’s some fairly large communal responsibility that’s a tedious pain in the ass, say filling out TPS reports and their associated cover sheets. You’re working on them and see coworker sitting there playing solitaire on her computer. Fifteen minutes later, she’s still playing while you work so you ask her to pitch in. “Yeah, sure, I’ll be there in a minute.” Fifteen minutes after that, she’s still playing solitaire while you sludge through those damn reports. So you put a handful of them on her desk and ask her to do them. “Yeah, sure, in a minute.” Half an hour later, you remind her those need to be done. “Soon as I finish lunch.” An hour after lunch, you remind her again. “Jesus, stop nagging, I’ll do them in a minute.” Finally, middle of the afternoon, she brings them over to your desk. They’re filled in, but half the numbers are wrong and there’s no cover sheet. So you redo them yourself.
What are you going to think about said coworker? Are you going to think she’s a good person with a good work ethic who just needs some patient teaching to do this well? Or are you going to think she’s a lazy cow who’s trying to weasel out of doing TPS reports? Would your opinion of her honestly be that much better if the reports had been done right when she finally got them to you? After the third or fourth week in a row this goes on, how easy it going to be for you to be polite to her about the TPS reports? How likely are you to start viewing her as generally lazy and useless about everything, not just the damn reports? And what do you think she says about you and how you ride her ass about them all the time?
It’s just a bad situation all the way around.
I don’t really have a good solution for you, because we have a totally different housework fight. We have the “Stop following me around picking up after me,” “We both know I’ll wind up picking it eventually anyway, goddamn if I’m putting up with an attitude about it” fight.
We just both have pretty low standards, which seems to work for us. In general, I am more likely to tackle ambitious projects–cleaning out the closets, mopping the floor–and he’s more likely to do day-to-day stuff. But neither of us are fastidious, which helps.
We do periodically renegotiate chores so that they don’t get stale and so that if we are starting to feel like we are over-burdened, we can correct it. So laundry rotates between us on a long (multi-year) cycle.
The one thing I feel very strongly needs to be done together is finances. In so many marriages (including my own at one time), one person becomes the money police, deciding who can spend money on what and handling all the bills. This is a BAD idea and I wish someone had told me so when I got married. One, it’s a burden on the part of the person responsible because they have to tell the other person “no” sometimes and it makes them feel like an asshole. Two, it’s frustrating to the person who gets told “no” because they take it personally or feel like unfair decisions are being made. Three, it leads to the person in charge often concealing financial trouble because they feel like it’s their fault or that they’ve done something wrong or just overwhelmed and they don’t want to have to pull the reins in even tighter so they ignore the problem. Four, if something happens to the person that handles the money, the other person is fucked–who wants to have to learn to manage money at the same time they are dealing with the death of a partner? Money needs to be handled like two business partners, not like a parent/child. There are lots of ways to do this–jointly or separately–but it needs to be talked out as equals.
