How can some people go to jail for 2+ years for being on To Catch A Predator?

Great Debates
223

Where I live you can get a permit at 15. You can operate farm equipment even younger. Should it be lowered to 13? Sure. Because you don’t magically get a driver’s license and the ability to drive a car unaccompanied. You still have to prove you’re competent to drive by taking an exam. I am sure one could prove competency at a younger age.

I don’t want citizens above or under 18 to server in the military, but again tests of competency could be given at any age. I don’t know if you’re aware, but most adults aren’t emotionally prepared for state-sanctioned murder, but I am sure we can do a psychological test on children to see if they lack empathy.

You’d be an idiot to think that 13-15 year olds don’t already have plenty of access to alcohol whether it’s legal for them to have it or not, but I know you don’t actually believe this to be the case. You just want to run down the list of the restrictions we place on minors which were in enacted because of parental hysteria by prudish people of another era and reinforced and expanded by prudes of this era.

Because, just like religion, we are programmed to believe without question that our morality is the most pure and perfect.

I don’t think adults should be allowed to have sex with kids. My definition of kid is greatly different from most of the people on this board however. I at least respect that people reach maturity at different ages, and some adults never mature.

I think a person’s age has a lot more to do with their mental state than their physical body, but that’s no excuse to molest children or to have children actively seek much older men. The hysteria surrounding the issue is what bothers me.

When I hear really smart people have such contempt for another group of people with a mental illness they can’t control, it makes me think that perhaps these people are being a bit hypocritical or unreasonable. Just ask yourself, if you’d be willing to protest the execution of a serial killer (I would) would you also be willing to protest the execution of a child molester? In the latter question, I am not sure I’d be confident enough to do it because of the amount of ridicule I might receive.

TCAP is just another part of this hysteria.

Like I said, my dad was much older than my mom. And she was 15 when she got pregnant. My grandmother got married when she was 16. My great grandmother on my father’s side had kids when she was 14.

The hysteria surrounding these ages is pretty recent. I am not saying I want to go back to an age of child brides. All I am saying is to stop acting like these people are evil incarnate that need to be wiped off the planet. I would prefer the conversation be more about how to cure these people rather than how best we ‘deal’ with them.

224

I’m not sure how much control these people have, and I suspect it varies. Regardless, it’s entirely reasonable to temper one’s compassion for people with a mental illness with concern about the damage those people can do.

Just to set the record straight, you can’t get the death penalty in the U.S. for sexually abusing a child unless you also murder the child. Even if you could, the position you’re describing might be inconsistent but it’s not hypocritical. But the biggest problem is that you’re just assuming people hold these positions so you can use those positions to criticize them for being unreasonable. That’s simply an unfair debating tactic. It’s strawmanning.

225

According to your reasoning, everyone who solicits sexual contact from persons under the age of legal consent is mentally ill and needs help. Were your father, your grandfather, and great grandfather mentally ill? Yes, by your own assertion, though in the same breath you indicate that no one was harmed by these three relationships.

Or you believe that some persons under the age of legal consent are mentally, physically, and emotional able to make the decision to have sexual contact with persons of any age, which renders the mental state of their partner moot.

Which is it? You have indicated that the act of soliciting sex from minors is always indicative of mental illness.

You have also indicated that some minors are capable of making a responsible, informed decision to have sex with legal adults, which indicates that the mental illness of hebephillia needs not be addressed, treated, or prevented.

226

I’ve made plenty of arguments. I am done playing the devil’s advocate. Possibly some of my points were weaker than others, but my point of view on this issue has changed drastically since when I first started. So thank you for making sympathetic to pedophiles, it will be something I’ll have to hide in shame to prevent getting lynched.

I’ve been trying to rationalize what they do because that’s what rational people do. Rational people don’t just scream “EVIL!” like the indoctrinated do. I understand they have a defect and are not to blame for their attractions.

I will admit that if they know they have a problem, they should get help. But I also don’t blame them for being wary of telling ANYONE about their issues because of the stigma society has attached to it. Who wouldn’t want to just hide it?

From what I have read, many people do not feel that the molestation of a boy by a woman is as egregious as a girl being molested by a man. I also have a hard time seeing them as equally wrong or harmful. I am almost convinced that we are creating victims where there does not need to be any. At least in SOME cases. I am not and never have said it is right for a man to go after an infant.

What I am saying is that, if a 14yo desires sex from an older man and ends up having sex with him and isn’t traumatized. We are only forcing her to view it as traumatic because of the hysteria. Sure maybe we should still lock the guy up for doing it, but do we have to make such a big deal out of it? Do we have to make the guy seem like he’s going after a baby when he’s interested in a girl who has had puberty and probably does desire sex?

Stop throwing the word “kid” and “child” around. Call them adolescents or teens.

I’d be interested to know how many 12 and 13 yo kids were ever lured away on the Internet, and if these practices have been the slightest bit effective. It seems like a huge waste of time to me.

227

Most of the items you are disputing have not been asserted in this thread - they’re just the opinions you ascribe to people who disagree with you. And of course, the only people who’ve used the word “evil” in this discussion have been you and ModernPrimate, who are trying to make everyone else sound shrill and hysterical. Do I have to spell out the irony here?

228

I never asserted that they weren’t mentally ill. Possibly my father was. I don’t know. I haven’t talked to him in years. Maybe I’ll call him up and ask him if he’s still into 15yo girls. Think he’d give me a straight answer? Maybe if I booze him up.

Just because the parties involved were mentally ill, does not mean any parties involved have to be harmed. You’re asserting that people with mental illnesses are guaranteed to cause harm to others, but that’s just not true. More likely they just won’t be able to perform in socially acceptable way.

I never really made the claim either way. I am saying that it wasn’t until recently that it became so socially unacceptable. And anti social behavior is usually indicative of mental illness (or rather we want to explain away aspects of human behavior - which would probably be normal among feral humans). There are many illnesses which might not really be abnormal except for in the context of modern society.

I think that if we want to completely quash the issue, we should tackle it at both ends. So yes. Good point.

229

Just out of curiosity, if I went into a general area chatroom, and then found someone who was claiming to be 14 years old but everytime this person said that I replied with “I know you say you are 14 but I honestly believe you are actually 18. You certainly don’t look like you are 14, and I’m not interested in having sex with someone who is younger than 18” And then convinced this person to allow me to meet up with them with the intent to have sex, would there be a case against me?

I have heard plenty of times that if you end up having sex with a minor who LIED to you about their age, then you are still at fault. So it seems that this whole thing about “belief” is a little ridiculous. Who cares if you believe someone is 14 or 18… if you have sex with a minor, or intend to have sex with someone who is a minor (regardless of how old they actually are), you are committing a crime. Are you not?

230

By the letter of the law, there is no US jurisdiction of which I am aware in which the a mistaken belief concerning the child’s age is allowable as an affirmative defense.

Now, granted, I’d personally support such an affirmative defense, if it could be proved that the child deliberately and convincingly misled (via, say, fake id) the perp. That wouldn’t apply in your first paragraph in any case. Your scenario amounts to raping someone, and every time she said “no” you replied with “I just heard you say ‘yes, more!’”.

231

I don’t think the words need to be said.

If you support TCAP or what Perverted Justice are doing, you are supporting the exploitation of the mentally ill. The purpose of that show just seems very malicious in nature. I believe the methods are too extreme and I am not sure if it has any merit. It seems everyone rationalization is that had they not put these people away they would have committed some heinous act, but I am not sure that is the case at all.

It’s like putting a Porsche with LoJack into a poor community. Knowing that some poor guy is going to take the bait. What is his real crime? Being poor. Try parking it in a rich neighbor hood sometime.

These guys are going to these chat rooms because that’s where lonely and pathetic souls go. As much as Zeriel would like to believe, I highly doubt there are many REAL girls in these teen sex chats. In fact I am almost positive there are zero. IRC is not exactly as accessible as Facebook or Twitter.

The people who use IRC typically are somewhat computer savvy. Goodluck even finding a high school or middle school girl who knows what IRC is. Maybe this is misogyny talking again, but I can see geeky boys going to IRC sex chats because it seems to be something more likely for these boys to do. And they are probably naive enough to actually think real girls are there.

But I was that age too. And I often went to IRC. Even then everyone knew never to trust a girl to actually be a girl until you heard them talk. In fact we always assumed girls were just old guys who wants to molest younger boys. We were all very aware.

The girls who I did know, typically never wanted other people to know they were girls. They did not advertise themselves and they would never have gone to an IRC sex chat.

Again, maybe it’s misogynistic, but I think it’s a pretty accurate depiction of what the IRC community really is: a sausage fest where all the real girls are lurkers.

232

No, you’re asserting that all persons who solicit sex from minors are mentally ill. I do not believe that for a moment, but I do believe that minors are deserving of far more protection than the typically developed adults as well as the pedophiles/ hebephiles who seek their attention.

Stealing is a criminal act. Kleptomania is indicative of mental illness. Not all thieves are kleptomaniacs, but both acts are illegal, and those laws protect the innocent from being robbed. I do not want the objects I paid for to disappear, and the mental state of the thief is none of my concern. If my things are missing, I’ve been harmed. Similarly, the mental state of the offender has zero bearing on the calculation of harm to the victim. Age of consent laws are intended to protect minors regardlesss of the offender’s mental state.

Let’s just take the hypotheticals off the table, and remove your family dynamic from the discussion as well. Most of us are content with the laws that protect minors as they are. I can say with near certainty that everyone in this discussion has at one time been a teenager, and that each of us can admit that we know more now than we knew at 13, and also that knowledge is cumulative and contributes to our ability to make informed decisions. There are repercussions to having sex, and those who are less informed are less well equipped to handle those repercussions.

For the moment, let’s put aside the potential for emotional and physical harm to the minor, and consider the risk of pregancy alone. Most 13-15 year olds do not possess the means to obtain birth control. Resources are quite limited for someone too young to work, and too young to drive. Most 13-15 year olds have just arrived at puberty, and have not achieved a physical stature and strength adequate to bear children. Nor do they possess the common sense to pursue medical care and good nutrition with which to provide the fetus with optimal health while in utero. Most 13-15 year olds have 3-5 years of education to complete before they can legally finish school and focus on raising an infant. 13-15 year olds are unemployed, and unemployable. It makes no difference how sexy they look, or how impulsive and horny they are: 13-15 year olds are not legally, mentally, physically, or emotionally ready to raise a healthy infant to adulthood without the constant and comprehensive intervention by either caregivers or the government.

233

I never said that they shouldn’t go to jail if they had sex with them. I am saying if they go there believing she was 18 and discovered she was not then they SHOULD NOT sleep with them.

The whole point is these guys never slept with anyone. My argument is that everything is based on intent which is all speculative. All you need to do is claim that in no way did I ever think she was actually a minor because she acted like an adult who was role playing.

234

The crime and punishment are the same regardless of the thief’s mental state or the neighborhood the crime is committed in. The victim is the person whose car was stolen. The thief is not the victim regardless of the neighborhood he or she steals in.

The DSM does not indicate that lonely and pathetic are hallmarks of mental illness. The law is designed to protect victims. The mentally ill are not victims unless or until a crime has been committed against them.

An adult who possesses a mode of transportation, the means with which to purchase alcohol and condoms, the impetus to drive to an unsupervised minor’s house, and the forethought to ask his or her age and warn that “I could get in trouble for this” knows full well which legal and moral laws he or she is breaking. With all of those bases covered beforehand, a legal adult who pursues contact with a minor is displaying the aptitude and faculty of a fully functioning adult intending to commit a crime and not someone with a mental illness in need of sympathy.

A fetish or a preference is not in and of itself a mental illness and deserves no special protection.

235

The words haven’t been said. It’s a good thing you don’t think the words need to be said- otherwise it would look an awful lot like you were putting words in people’s mouths to make it look like you were pleading for sanity in the face of an angry mob that was out for blood. In point of fact, you’re mostly misrepresenting the law and making up silly hypotheticals.

I said on the first page that To Catch a Predator is sleazy and that it’s unfortunate police departments got involved with it. I pointed out somewhere else - I think the second page - that the show has not aired an episode in four years. It’s history. The show was prurient and exploitative. I’m not sure how Perverted Justice is exploiting anyone. I’m not sure about their methods, but putting someone in prison for committing a crime is not exploitative.

Being poor doesn’t make it OK to steal someone else’s luxury car. Being mentally ill doesn’t excuse raping a child. If you can show the person who committed the crime didn’t know right from wrong or that there was some other extenuating circumstance, there’s an argument to be made that the person shouldn’t be punished too harshly. But the mere fact that a young teen exists and it on the internet is not an invitation for an older guy to screw her. That’s not a difficult distinction to make.

‘Lonely and pathetic’ is not a mental illness or an excuse for committing a crime.

236

If it’s not a mental illness, it’s at the very least anti social behavior. Such behaviors can be treated through aversion therapy. Potentially those who desire to steal could be treated in the same way, though we believe that incarceration is good enough negative reinforcement (and for the most part it is). In a way all undesirable behaviors can be treated like mental illness (since mental illness itself is just an undesirable behavior).

I’m not going to disagree with anything else you said because I don’t really disagree with you. I personally think that everyone should be required to be sterilized at birth and that all babies should be grown in test tubes to prevent unwanted pregnancies, but is your only argument against teen sex the potential side effects? Or is it based on puritan views that pleasure is sinful and children experiencing pleasure is especially sinful?

If we completely eradicated STDs and made unwanted pregnancy impossible, would you be willing to lower the legal age? It’s true some would still be psychologically unprepared for sex, but shouldn’t restrict sex to only those who pass a psychological evaluation (even ‘adults’)?

237

My post wasn’t actually in response to you or anyone else, it was just a hypothetical I wanted the answer to.

However, to address your point…

I think it’s been pretty firmly established throughout this thread that intent to commit a crime is a crime itself. Speculative as it may be, that is why we have juries, lawyers and judges to determine whether or not there is enough evidence to prove intent to commit the crime. If they find strong evidence that you intend to commit a crime, then you committed a crime and will do the time. Or you may realize (as most of these guys have) that you will get reamed by a jury and judge, so you just take whatever bargain the prosecutor gives you and do your time without putting up a fight.

Like people have pointed out, even if you SAID in the chat logs “I don’t really believe you are 14, I believe you are an adult who is roleplaying” a judge and jury might not find that to be a convincing argument. You’d be playing with fire.

238

I was trying to draw a parallel between the Porsche with LoJack in the ghetto and the fake tween in the sex chat.

And you’re right, it’s not the best example because the car can not express distaste for being stolen, the car is tangible, and the crime is committed without the need to prove intent because the person gets into the car and drives off.

In the case of the fake tween, she has every opportunity to object to advances being made. The lack of such objections should seem suspicious to anyone who isn’t already under the assumption the person is lying about their identity. I’ve never seen a chat log where the conversation looked authentic. The behavior of the girl should be throwing up many red flags. Unlike the car, the ‘criminal’ is not given a child to begin molesting before the police come in to stop him.

The criminal is instead sometimes lured in by just a voice or phone call, or an officer pretending to be an underage girl. And, while it’s true that many women can be convincing sounding like girls, I’ve never been able to judge a girl’s age by her voice. Their voices don’t change as drastically as mens’ do. So it’s impossible to say that the perp knew she was underage because she sounded like a kid. Many adult females sound like kids.

The only evidence is the intent based on communications between two adults where one adult is assumed to believe the other is a child.

But I’ve made this point to many times already. So I give up. But it was a convincing enough argument that someone actually was acquitted. I believe there is some validity to it.

239

And yet they go ahead with it anyway, and anyone who proceeds to a meetup with someone who says she is underage on the assumption that she isn’t is very stupid. I think you’re making a lot of unfounded assumptions in the hope they’ll support your argument. ‘Teens don’t know IRC.’ ‘Girls don’t say they’re girls.’ 'Everybody knows everybody lies on the ‘net.’ I don’t find this stuff convincing at all, and even if it’s all true, it doesn’t explain the behavior that gets these guys arrested.

240

Yes, of course the arguments against legal adults having sex with legal minors *are *the potential side effects of emotional damage to someone who is not emotional mature enough to handle an intimate relationship, pregnancy, STD’s, etc.

You have offered another strawman which I am inclined to ignore, but I’ll humor it. Has anyone here mentioned a religious or puritanical basis for agreement with our current age of consent laws? You are conversing here with an audience which makes a deliberate effort to use logic, reason, and valid arguments to support their statements. “You don’t agree with me, therefore you are all prudes” is not a valid argument. If you are curious about each of our respective views on sex in legal relationships, I suggest you set up a poll in IMHO.

I don’t quite understand the last statement. The risk of psychological damage holds the same weight as unwanted pregnancy and STD’s, in my opinion. Each of these outcomes should be avoided if at all possible. And a psych eval is not a necessary requirement for teens to pursue and enjoy sexual relationships. Teens frequently have consensual sex *with each other *that causes neither party significant emotional harm. Often this happens with full knowledge of the teens’ caregivers and charges are not pressed. Masturbation and the entire range of sex acts among equal peers is often a typical progression of maturity for many US teens.

TCAP does not depict sexual relationships among peers. It depicts a significant age gap and clearly portrays the younger end of the teen spectrum as petite, squeaky voiced 13 year olds with little or no sexual experience.

Do you realize that laws against sexual harassment have zero to do with puritanical beliefs and everything to do with an unequal power dynamic? The same dynamic is happening with young minors and adults on TCAP. Many of our laws protect the weak, the naive, and those at a disadvantage. Law enforcement makes an effort to apply these laws equally and fairly. We do not offer loopholes because some employees/minors are sexier than others, or because the offenders are particularly lonely and pathetic.

241

There are plenty of people who partake in anonymous encounters with random people they meet online. Sometimes they attempt to meet women, but really end up meeting men.

And certainly the people who do it are stupid. It is very stupid, but when has stupidity ever been in short supply? And should stupidity itself be a crime? Perhaps.

But then lets change the laws and require a certain IQ to get out of jail.

242

Do a lot of them to go chat rooms for men and arrange meetings with the people in the chat room under the assumption that they’re actually women pretending to be men? Because that was your defense in this situation.