Because thieves don’t recruit their victims. They go to your home and steal your shit if there’s an opportunity. If not, they go somewhere else. Sexual predators don’t work that way. It’s true that society may be misplacing its emphasis on these people because children are more likely to be abused by a family member than a stranger who finds them over the internet, but that doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be stings like this. And if we’re having a silly hypotheticals contest, ‘kleptomaniacs in chat rooms’ is a strong contender.
This was false on page one, and it’s still false. Repetition does not make it true. These people have not been able to follow through on their stated intention to have sex with a kid age 13 to 15, but that does not mean they have not committed a crime. Attempting to committ a crime is itself a crime.
That’s the trick, ain’t it. I mean, I’d be somewhat in favor of the process for becoming an emancipated minor being a little more accessible and a lot more meaningful, but the fact of the matter is twofold:
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you’re a rarity. Brain development continues until one is in their mid twenties, and good judgement is not typically on the priority list.
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In matters of law, there MUST be bright lines–the alternative is allowing (IMHO) too much latitude to an already overworked criminal justice system that doesn’t have a lot of time for subtleties.
I AM diagnosed with mental illnesses. I have had years of therapy and medication to get to the point where I don’t explode into a rage at the slightest provocation (what made me end up getting help was flying into a half-hour bellowing-at-the-top-of-my-lungs and throwing furniture tirade regarding some people leaving me out of dinner plans because they’d forgotten I asked to be invited. It’s a wonder I still have friends from college, but fortunately most of them understood mental illness when they saw it.)
That said, I don’t see what’s so hard about recognizing you have a problem and getting treatment for it, BEFORE you cross the line into hurting someone. Even in the throes of a serious problem, I knew there was a major difference between “yelling and throwing things” and “throwing things AT PEOPLE”, and my approach to that line scared me into therapy.
So I’m sympathetic, but only to the point of understanding and treating people who recognize that they need that treatment. It’s not as though there’s any shortage of anti-pedophile messages in our society.
Flip question, serious answer: Because kleptomaniacs don’t troll (in the fishing sense) in chat rooms, and pedophiles/ephebophiles do. Because there aren’t any chat rooms callled “tellmewhenyougoonvacation” but there ARE chat channels called “teensexchat”–don’t believe me? Fire up IRC. (I won’t lie when I say I spent a hell of a lot of time in the latter when I was 16-17).
Then you are claiming to read minds.
None of these TCAP incidents went to trial, except for one. In that case the defendant claimed that he believed the girl was older than she said she was.
Now, I did not watch a lot of TCAP, but I know there were some men with excuses like this and some who just flat out admitted it. In the latter case, okay, there is no gray area. And my level of disgust is metered by exactly how young the girl in question was supposed to be and how old the man is.
But for the former, how are we to know that they didn’t think the girls were older than she said she was. Are the chat logs between someone role playing and someone truly convinced the girl is underage going to be that different? Are the intentions of role playing and actually soliciting to a minor going to be obviously different?
You can’t just say, he came there with the intention because it’s purely speculative. Perhaps other evidence might back up your arguments of malicious intent (such as the guy with duct tape), but you still need to convince a jury. And the only time it was ever taken to court the judge threw it out and the jury was unanimously in favor of the defendant anyway.
I am actually SURPRISED this is the case because if some random stranger called me a pedophile in public, I’d probably just duck my head and get the hell out of there preying no one recognized me. i wouldn’t bother defending myself because the words are that strong that I’d rather just run away!
People are so hysterical about it they would never even think that POSSIBLY this guy was just randomly calling another random person a pedophile. Sure I could stick around, call the cops, and try to sue the guy for defamation, but I don’t think I would.
I personally feel there is a lot of hysteria over this and people need calm the fuck down and look at real solutions.
This is exactly why there SHOULDN’T be things like this. It’s a waste of resources and you are potentially locking people up for no good reason. Maybe if these stings were focused on people who have access to children I’d have a different view.
So you think the most demonized and universally loathed people are going to trust mental health facilities?
The general consensus is not “we want to help you overcome your illness,” it’s “we want you to burn in hell - even though I just sang kumbaya at that serial murderers execution.” I don’t know if I’d trust too many people.
Nope. This has also been explained over and over, but reading minds is not necessary. The claim is that people say they want to do something illegal (having sex with someone underage), and then try to do something illegal (planning a meeting and coming over). That they fail to do what they said they were going to do (because it’s a sting) through no fault of their own is not much of a defense.
Serious answer: the possibility is so remote that I don’t consider it likely enough to bother worrying about. Joke answer: like I said upthread, if you’re an adult and you go to a chat room for teens to plan a sexual encounter based on your own assumption that you’re really talking to an adult, you are so stupid you belong in jail on general principles.
And despite the remote possibility, this exact defense acquitted the only person who went to trial. I guess it’s a statistical anomaly?
Though, I would never chat up a girl who said she was underage, if I was drunk and in some random chat and started making lewd comments to a girl and she did not immediately tell me to go fuck off, I would probably assume she was legal.
Perhaps, these guys are thinking the same thing: No REAL 13yo would let me talk like this to her. Must just be some woman RPing. As we all know, no adults are actually adults online and most women are actually men.
So the guy’s lawyers managed to establish reasonable doubt in at least one juror. Good for him, but I don’t think it’s a major concern. You could say the same thing about any kind of sting operation (and lawyers probably do).
We are talking about people who deliberately went to chat rooms with titles like “teensexchat” (which, again, exists) and deliberately talked to a person who asserted their age at below the legal age.
We are talking about people who have shown every intention to molest a child, to the point of showing up to the child’s house with condoms.
That’s a line. It’s been crossed. It’s been crossed the second that person started a conversation with a human being who claimed to be a teenager under the age of consent.
That’s a crime, by the way. “Attempted X” is a crime, even if the circumstances were such that you couldn’t possibly succeed in performing act X. If I put a gun to your head and pull the trigger, even if unbeknownst to me the cops swapped out the gun for one that had no firing pin, I am still on the hook.
The judge threw it out and one of the jurors publicly stated that it would have been unanimous otherwise.
Shouldn’t reasonable doubt be evident in every case in which the defendant claimed to believe the subject was lying about their age and was older? Who knows how things would have ended up if they had taken it to court. The Perverted Justice decoys claim to be able to ‘speak like a child would’ but how do they know if they are being convincing? And what is the difference between a woman pretending to be a child and a woman role-playing as a child? They are the same thing.
If there is a perverted female who likes to go to chat rooms and pretend to be a little girl to entice men, how is that different from the Perverted Justice decoys who go to chat rooms and pretend to be little girls???
How do you know a man does not go to teensexchat because he knows that barely anyone in that chat are actually teens and he is probably just a lonely guy looking for companionship among other desperately lonely guys. (no offence zeriel)
Again, no one is ever who they say they are on the Internet. You play video games with these people who claim to be in their mid twenties, and then you finally hear them on skype or teamspeak and it turns out they are really 12.
You have men who go to chatrooms to pretend to be little girls to entice other older men. I’ve known girls who lied about their ages to get into clubs just to meet older guys. I’ve did it myself (well not to meet older guys).
The only thing we can know for sure online is that the person you are communicating with is probably lying about something.
And yet it isn’t. You may have difficulty with this point, but not everybody does: I think that if someone says he wants to do something and takes steps to make it happen, that’s a pretty clear indication he wants to do it. The fact that he can’t do it through no fault of his own doesn’t mean it’s no harm and no foul.
I don’t think this is reasonable doubt. This is ‘what ridiculous excuse can I imagine that might be true in one case out of a few thousand.’
Which means it’s safe to set up a meeting to have sex with someone claiming to be a young teen because they’re probably lying. And if it turns out you’ve agreed over the internet to have sex with a young teen and you show up at his or her house with a box of condoms, well, no harm, no foul.
ModernPrimate and IAmError403, In most US states, the minimum age to receive a driving permit is 16. Should this age be lowered to 13?
Citizens under the age of 18 cannot serve in the military. But there are certainly mature 13 year olds who are equipped to handle and maintain firearms, to operate certain vehicles, and who have a history of following rules and orders. Should 13-15 year olds be permitted to go to serve? Do 13-15 years olds have a firm emotional grasp on the risks involved in war?
In the US, persons under 21 are forbidden from drinking. (Many US citizens believe that old enough to die for our country should be equal to old enough to consume alcohol, but that is different topic.) Do you feel that certain 13-15 year olds should be allowed to purchase and consume alcoholic beverages at will? Most 13-15 years old bodies and brains have not fully developed physically. Do you feel that persons of this age should be allowed to expose their growing bodies to the risks inherent in drinking?
Many of our laws set a specific chronological age for privileges. Why do either of you feel that the age of consent should be lowered to suit the deviations of a select few older adults who are attracted to 13-15 year olds, *or *decided on a case-by-case basis? Why aren’t you bemoaning the age requirements of driving, drinking, and serving in the miliary? Why are age of consent laws your cause celebre?
Under the law, a mental disease or defect is no defense against the commission of a crime unless the actor was, because of his mental disease or defect, unable to distinguish right from wrong.
And if such a scenario occurred, and the outcome was the guy ran like hell away from there, he would have proved my point.
If a person truly did believe that the person was older than she claimed to be, then I see nothing wrong with him going to their house if it seemed like his company was desired by this person. But if it ended up being an underage girl, I’d expect him to get away as quickly as possible.
The problem is you believe that everyone behaves perfectly rational when it comes to sex. Certainly most of us are probably a little more discerning than some people, but I would imagine there are some very desperate people looking for sex in all the wrong places. Willing to make leaps of logic in attempt to get laid.
If you hadn’t had sex in a long time and were extremely horny, perhaps you would take the risk that the girl was older than she said she was, knowing that you could always walk away if she was too young when you got there.
I’ve never had to do this, but I know there are guys out there who card girls before they sleep with them.
to be clear here-- are you saying that of all the To Catch A Predator arrests, only one resulted in a trial? And theorist resulted in guilty pleas?
And from this we should infer that the arrests were legally weak?
You keep saying, “In the one case that went to trial, it was thrown out!” but isn’t that just as likely to mean that the reason the other cases didn’t go to trial is because the perps knew they were guilty as fuck and it would be a waste of time? I mean, your one guy who thought he was meeting a grown up or whatever, and was able to prove it, went to trial and had the case thrown out. He wasn’t found guilty. From where I sit, it looks like the system is working.
ETA: Bricker said it above, as well.
Being super horny is not an excuse to commit criminal acts. Just like being super poor is not an excuse to steal an iPad.
Why would someone believe that? Oh right - “everybody lies on the internet.” Since everyone lies, it’s safe to assume that the truth is whatever I would like it to be. Everyone who says they are underage is of age. Does that sound like a rational way to behave?
No, the problem is that you’re trying to leave the door open for all kinds of goofball what-ifs to prove your point. I think if someone says he wants to do something and takes steps toward making it happen, then he probably wants to do it. Your theory is that maybe he’s assumed a bunch of other things are really the case and doesn’t want to do what he said he’s going to do.
Again, what you’re describing is positively moronic behavior. If I am a lonely, horny legal adult, why on earth would I go to a chat room for teens and try to get busy with one and then hope it turned out she was an adult? Why wouldn’t I just go to a chat room for adults?
Okay, so just one question: if these guys are so sure the girl they’re talking to is a liar, WHY DO THEY GO TO HER HOUSE? I mean, without even a private “hey, you’re really a dude who wants to have some brews and be less lonely, right?” or “hey, you’re really of legal age, right?”
The chatting is skeevy and probably letter-of-the-law illegal, but you’ve at least got a case there. When the perp shows up at an address with condoms and wine coolers, well, there is no universe where that is acceptable.