This is why I think it’s incumbent on white people to work at persuading other white people that there’s a problem, and why it’s incumbent on white people to work on figuring out how to solve this problem. Even if it means white people get subjected to glib, sophomoric taunts about how they’re appointing themselves the spokesperson for black people; we’ll just have to bear up under that foolishness.
Like fuck it is. It’s very real. People die from it.
If the friend can put a personal perspective on the situation, it can greatly help with understanding the problem. I think it’s a stretch to expect a person who is blind to a situation figure that situation out. Likely, the person will try to understand from a perspective of their own assumptions and biases, which likely didn’t see the problem in the first place.
For example, when I was young, I didn’t think Affirmative Action was needed anymore. Since many of the explicit barriers for minorities had been removed, I thought that was sufficient. But over the years, I’ve learned that there are still many cultural, social, and economic boundaries that still exist. The HR person may discard a resume because the name sounds foreign or from a minority group. The person may not have as good of an academic and extra curricular background because of the neighborhood they grew up in. Even though explicit barriers are not there, we still need AA to overcome these larger issues. But in my 20’s, I didn’t understand all that. If I had a minority friend who was saying that I had white privilege and that I had to figure out what that meant, I would likely not understand his struggles. And if I did try to figure it out, I would likely go down the wrong path. I would probably assume he meant more traditional racism, like Jim Crow laws. But if instead he told me how he had to make his name sound whiter when he applied for a job, it would greatly clarify the kinds of issues he’s dealing with.
LHOD bluntly put, the thing is that getting “subjected to glib, sophomoric taunts about how they’re appointing themselves the spokesperson for black people” is a possible sign of doing a poor job “at persuading other white people that there’s a problem”. (Although maybe a better job of trying convince yourself that you personally are one of the good whitefolks. :))
So white people to white people - and hopefully accepting that the harder sell is getting the half of white people who do not get the privilege thing to understand it - maybe even using your pedagogical expertise - how do we effectively make that sell, what do we propose to do to address the issue of privilege, and how do we sell those policies to those whose own experienced reality is not feeling very privileged at all?
filmore what you describe are implicit and institutional factors and I strongly suspect that those unimpressed by the conclusive evidence that it exists are more likely than not going to hear their friend as being paranoid and blaming imagined racism for their failure to get the job that they did not get for some other reason. There is a parallel here with weather vs climate, if that makes sense.
Absolutely it helps to have conversations with people of color. I’ve had many conversations about these things with all sorts of people. But it’s also reasonable for a person of color not to want to always have to stop and explain the same shit all over again. It’s really, really reasonable for a person of color not to want their relationships with white people to be that of the “exotic” one, who explain the strange and foreign world they live in. And it’s important to acknowledge that “Well, what do you expect ME to do about it?” is a question that’s often not asked in good faith, by people that are at best seeking absolution and at worst by people who are looking for a pretext to characterize people of color as acting in bad faith. It has a degree of self-absorption to it: okay, but let’s make this conversation relevant to me.
We can have these conversations. But white people can also try to educate themselves. There’s tons of essay and accounts and discussions already out there about these issues. Google is, in fact, your friend.
There’s no “selling” to folks whose minds aren’t open. I think we make the best case we can, backed up by data, personal experience, and the accounts of folks of color. That’s how my opinion was changed. And all tools can be on the table – satire, gentle discussion, mockery, harsh criticism, and even shunning and shaming. All of these can be effective, when done well, in certain circumstances.
The problem is everyone thinks they do it well.
Bullshit. The world is not divided in minds that are open or not with nothing in-between. Most are somewhere in-between.
I’ll readily grant that the 30% of white Americans who don’t think that “racial discrimination against blacks is a serious problem” in this country are going to be the toughest to market the concept of privilege as an amenable issue to. But there are a fair number of white Americans who do say that racism is a serious problem yet do not agree that “white people benefit from advantages in society that black people do not have” and who therefore would be less likely on board with policy action to address it.
They are the target market.
I for one am not saying I do it well. My contact with much of that group is limited and the venues I do have with those who I suspect are of that belief are not the best ones for such discussions. I’m pretty ineffective honestly if just for that lack of venue and what I do do is usually the soft sell. I hope it has made some impact over the years but I don’t, can’t really know.
OTOH I have enough experience selling behavioral change to have some strong opinions on what is counterproductive and what works in general. We accomplish our *own *behavioral change by first believing that what do actually makes a difference. I need to believe that I can get better at recognizing how my implicit beliefs impact my behaviors and control for it better and to believe that it impacts the lives of people around me. Motivating behavioral change in others generally requires a connection, an alliance, which begins with having some empathy for and understanding of where they are at, and from there having things they can do that can make a positive difference - specific policies and candidates to support for example …
“In between” is open. In any case, the rest of this doesn’t really seem to conflict with what I recommended.
Oh fuck no I don’t. But I tell my kids you gotta keep trying something to get good at it.
As andy points out, there are plenty of ways for persuasion to work. Folks who are hostile want you to believe that the only appropriate method is seduction: you gotta flatter and cajole and offer them backrubs and mints on their pillows, or else they don’t have to listen to anything.
But I strongly disagree. There are plenty of ways to approach people, depending on where they are:
-Strongly and actively antiracist: shut up and listen to them to learn.
-Well-intentioned and equally informed: talk and share information and ideas.
-Well-intentioned and uninformed: Give the information you have.
-Neutral: ??? How is someone neutral about this topic, when it’s among the biggest dynamics in our society? Maybe they’re like five years old? Educate them.
-Fragile and defensive but otherwise well-intentioned: this may be where some flattery and cajoling is appropriate.
-Fragile and defensive and hostile: straight talk, blunt, don’t allow excuses.
-Smarmy and hostile: ostracize and minimize their social influence. They’re not likely to be persuadable, but they can be marginalized.
When someone is making smarmy “Oh I didn’t realize you were white, how lovely you got appointed the spokesperson for black people” posts, they’re one step away from calling you a race traitor. They’re not high on the list of persuadable people, and I don’t see any particular ROI on addressing them in the second person.
In my experience relaying a personal experience with racism opens me up for attack. It is an invitation for an argument, one where I am expected to provide irrefutable proof before I utter the word “racist”.
It puts me at risk of being labeled whiny or hypersensitive. I might have to endure a sermon.
“How did you know that that salesperson ignored you because of your race? Maybe they ignored you because they ignore everyone! Have you ever thought of that? Salespeople ignore me all the time and it doesn’t bother me none! Why does it bother you so much?”
If you don’t believe this happens, all you have to do is do a SDMB search on “microaggressions”. You will find a lot of respectful listeners, to be sure. But you will also find a lot of posters who are intent on painting anyone who complains of anti-black racism of being a hysterical whiny tittybaby.
When you experience this kind of hostility enough times, you learn that there is a cost to “dialoguing” with whites. Especially whites who are new to the discourse.
Also, not all members of a minority group experience oppression to the same degree. I would not want someone to think that racism must not be that big of deal simply because I can’t come up with a tragic personal story.
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I work with alot of black people. Often I’m the only white person working in an area or in the break room.
I have come to the conclusion that most black people enjoy their own little bubble. They like the fact that when they walk into a room they can spot another black person and know almost at an instant they now have a friend. In groups like at work they feel free to open up around each other. I’ve had times when their is a group of them together, I walk up, and the conversation suddenly changes. I remember one old black man I used to work with, Cecil. Nice man. professional acting. Friendly but pretty quiet. Until he was around a group of other black men and women and then Cecil would let loose and talk up a storm and he would also change his speech patterns. But if a white guy walked in suddenly he would get quiet again. So nobody is being rude or anything. Cecil just had his preferences of who he liked to open up with.
Its only human. We all like to segregate ourselves. You see it by age and gender also.
So back to the op, it was a FB discussion among a group of like minded individuals and they didnt want you in. If you wish to “beak in” so to speak, look for something in common like sports, tv, food etc… But realize they have their own group when it comes to racial issues.
You sure have a well mapped out battle plan and very strong animosity towards “backrubs and mints” for a guy who doesn’t fancy himself an awesome persuader.
Practicing doing the same thing in the same wrong way over and over again does not get you good at it; it only gets you more ingrained in your wrong way.
You seem to think that the issue is “Are you for racism or against it?” and the work is to get more to say they are on team “against it.” Your list of “where people are” is frankly laughable. Well-intentioned, fragile and defensive, or hostile? Cartoonish at best and more harmfully, condescending.
I am pretty damn confident that very few people would say they are FOR racism or even neutral, inclusive of those who express racist beliefs pretty explicitly. Most of even that 30% of white Americans who do not even believe that racial discrimination against Blacks is a serious issue in this country don’t think of themselves as racist, they are against it. They just don’t agree with what is and is not racist.
iiandyiiii sorry if I misinterpreted but it read to me like defining those who are not reached as therefore close minded and able to be dismissed from any effort, instead of seeing the possibility that for some it is more that we are failing to convince a mind that is slightly open because we suck at sales.
Cool, dude!
I mean, I think your characterization of what I’m saying is cartoonish at best, and don’t think there’s much percentage to responding further to you. So cool.
Is it cool? You lay out the 7 types of ignorant racist, the optimal strategy for each but hey, you’re a humble guy. No expert. Aw, shucks just doin my little bit.
It is SO cool! 
To start back at the op itself - While insulting Ambi as white patriarchy incarnate was way off the mark, it seems clear that a well intended white dude looking for advice on how to help fight racism from his Black friend is looking for expertise where there is no reason to expect it, and maybe hijacking a vent session.
Yes, the impacted sharing personal stories is in general typically more of a potent tool for persuasion than statistics are, but runs into the “weather versus climate” problem and is a large amount of emotional work for those sharing.
So we move on to - have some coffee, talk amongst yourselves: what can we white folks do? Discuss. (To be clear non-white folk are welcome to opine too! But are not looked to as sherpas. :))
Here’s my stab.
To me one big task is for each of us as individuals to give our own actions a very self-critical honest unflinching assessment that does not start with the self-presumption that we are one of the good ones and that the problem is what other people do. For most of us our first reaction to that ask is defensiveness. I behave in ways that go against what I honestly believe are my core values? No I don’t? Damn. Yes I do. It is hard for those of us with good intentions to work on becoming aware of how, despite our conscious goals and good intentions, our implicit beliefs lead us to still behave in ways that have racist impacts, of how we participate in systems that have racist impacts without even recognizing it, and trying to alter those patterns, just like we try to change other bad harmful habits. Personally I have a hard time even stopping picking at my hangnails, no matter how much my wife yells at me about it, and these harmful ingrained subconscious habits of thought are more pernicious than that. Catching ourselves when we are without realizing it engaging in a lazy bad habit of mind and substituting it with a different behavior, is hard … but it is impossible if we don’t even accept that we do it and make a plan to change. (There’s even research on what are effective tactics to reduce our implicit biases.) And of course we should try to have positive impact within the institutions we participate in.
Calling out explicit racism in the context of being within a group in which that gains you social currency, in real life or virtually, is possibly okay, but being the one bystander to speak up when someone is casually engaging in speech that demeans others, when no one else is speaking up, when others may not agree with you and it likely gains you no social currency with that crowd, quite the opposite, being the voice that says it is not okay to tell that joke whatever, that is more impressive and more meaningful. Doing that does not change minds but it does help to establish better norms of social behavior.
Be honest with ourselves that doing things that are social currency in the room we are in is self-pleasuring behavior more than things that matter. Preaching to the choir saves no souls. It just gives you the fun of hearing some "Amen!"s. Sometimes we need that but we can be honest with ourselves about it.
Support policies and candidates that would make a positive difference and help get the like-minded vote out.
Work on persuading that large group of fellow white folks who like you think “racism is bad” as a value statement and that it is a serious problem, yet do not believe that Blacks are systematically disadvantaged relative to whites in our society, do not believe anything they do has racist impacts, and/or are resistant to supporting policies and candidates that you think would help make that positive difference. As we try to do that we should reflect on the difficulty each of us has with seeing how our own actions have racist impacts despite our conscious beliefs and values. Making a respectful human connection and appealing to their values, recognizing that telling someone who is dropping down the SES ladder that they are solely the privilege beneficiaries without any empathy for their real problems is not likely to persuade too many, is not “flattery and cajoling.” It is basic sales smarts.
Recognize that calling someone who is of even a slightly open mind (and that is a pretty big number, even if we don’t make the sale too often) “racist” pushes them further into the tribe that reassures them that they most certainly are not.
I have always wished that the discussion on race would start addressing human nature more than it does the superficial symptoms that we see every day. Once we understand human nature we become less prone to blaming and carrying resentments. I don’t believe there is any sinister plot at work keeping racism alive. Whites could obviously do more to try and understand the plight of the minorities and take steps to make changes but they simply lack the incentive to do so. Minorities might do well to realize that their best strategy to becoming mainstream is to become mainstream as much as possible and still realize they are fighting an uphill battle If we are looking for fairness we are setting ourselves up to be angry because no where in nature does fairness play a part in anything.
:rolleyes: Suppose I live in a household that keeps selfishly throwing their trash in the neighbors’ yard, and the neighbors have had to spend years cleaning up our household’s trash.
And I eventually come to the realization that throwing trash in the neighbors’ yard is shitty behavior, and I have a sincere desire to do good and learn how to effectively combat my household’s shitty selfish trash-throwing proclivities.
If I go over to the neighbors’ yard where they’re busy cleaning up my household’s trash and ask them to teach me how to stand up against our trash-throwing, I think a very reasonable case can be made that I’m being kind of clueless and inconsiderate.
I mean, isn’t it bad enough that the neighbors have had to cope with our thrown trash all these years? Now they’re also being expected to devote time and energy to helping me figure out how to be a better anti-trash-throwing advocate?
I don’t see how you can really blame the neighbors for not being so super impressed and grateful about my “sincere desire to do good” that they jump at the chance to become my unpaid life coach.
Racism isn’t human nature – the system was set up with a purpose. Before 1700, there were actually wealthy black landowning families in Virginia. There were even mixed-race families! But all this was purposefully outlawed – not because of human nature, but because wealthy white landowners were afraid of the competition, and afraid that poor whites might find common cause with poor blacks.
Racism is a tool (one of many) for the system to maintain corruption, wealth, and power. It’s not in any way “natural”. America was set up with racism embedded within on purpose.