He founded Sav-A-Lot!?!
When did his killing spree start? If it was early/mid-1980s, the gay brother of my pastor at the time may have been a victim.
Well, I’d probably object if I were in your friend’s place, but more in an “OK, you and I need to have a Serious Talk about boundaries” sort of way than an “OMG I’VE BEEN RAPED” way, because it sounds like your friend was not at all averse to intimate contact and had presumably been giving the other guy signals to that effect. (Obviously, scratch this if he’d been drugged or had indicated that he wasn’t interested at any time during the evening, but I’d say that agreeing to spend the night at someone else’s place generally signifies consent.) Still, I think that on a first date with a near-stranger, one should be absolutely certain of the other party’s consent before initiating anything, and that generally entails their being awake.
However, if he doesn’t object, that’s his business, and I don’t really see what’s to be gained by convincing him that he ought to be upset about this when he doesn’t, in fact, feel that way.
Let’s change this a little, OK. A woman goes back to a man’s place. There seems to be a little chemistry between them along with a few alcoholic beverages. She falls asleep (passes out). Up to that moment she never agreed to a sexual relationship with the man.
She wakes up to find her pants down and his hand in her crotch. She has a few options:
- scream, grab her clothes, run and call the cops to report being sexually assaulted
- ask the guy what the hell he was doing and tell him to knock it off. She could tell him she isn’t ready to go that far on a first date, especially when she was unconscious
- say, “What the hell, he’s hot!” and reciprocate.
The law says that if she can’t say yes, then the answer is no. If she has no self respect and decides that she doesn’t mind getting pawed by a stranger when she is out cold, then that is her problem. She doesn’t have to call anyone, except for the guy who took advantage of her so she can set up a date when she can maintain consciousness.
All I can think of when I hear people excusing this is the same people screaming about date rape and spiked drinks and Lifetime movies like “She Woke Up Pregnant” .
Lissener’s friend liked waking up to a stranger giving him a handjob? Good for him. He doesn’t mind getting felt up while out cold? Have a great time! Personally, I prefer actively participating in my sexual escapades, but to each his own. Hopefully all he’ll keep from this and similar experiences is a few fond memories. If we find out later that he caught herpes, syphilis, crabs, Chlamydia, AIDS or wound up served over buttered noodles, I don’t want a single one of you saying a thing about how sad it is. He made his bed and will have to lie in it.
Somehow, changing the sexes doesn’t affect my opinion.
So, by definition, if someone has experiences that don’t coincide with what the law permits, they “have no self-respect”? Were you aware that people routinely have sex with each other while drunk? (One thing I’ve wondered: if both parties are drunk, per California law, did each of them rape the other?)
I don’t see anyone here suggesting that the first thing you should do on a date is feel them up when they’re unconscious. But, if you paid attention to some of the things a bunch of posters were saying (and if you are willing to acknowledge the fact that the boundaries of the law do not automatically define right and wrong), then you’ll see that a good case has been made that this is simply a romantic gesture. It really depends on the circumstances. If you can let go of your rigidness and simplistic sloganeering for a few minutes, you might see that this situation is a lot less clear-cut than you’re pretending.
And now the histrionics.
As I believe I’ve posted before, I went to sleep in the hostess’s room at a party and woke up being fellated by her. I hardly knew her, but I was delighted!
OK, you are consistent. So am I. It applies both ways.
No, I am not suggesting that. What I am saying is that a person who is not willing to get to know a person before engaging in sexual activity and instead thinks it is OK to rut like an animal with a stranger needs to take a good look in the mirror. I love waking up to my wife or, when I was dating, to my girlfriend doing things to me. It’s part of a normal, healthy relationship. Waking up to someone you had only met a few hours before stroking you and thinking, “Hey, OK,” suggests to me that you are a little on the easy side. And people who have sex while drunk are not considered in a coherent state and cannot give reasonable consent. That is how people get prosecuted for spiking drinks or plying someone with alcohol until they pass out and taking advantage of them.
The law does not automatically define right and wrong but it is the rule we have to follow in this country. You know the old thing about freedom of speech and being able to cry “Fire!” in a crowded movie house. And I personally think it is wrong for someone to feel up an unconscious person. The receiver of the attention may not consider it wrong and they might get off on it but it is a case of someone taking advantage of a powerless person. Look at this thread about a person taking advantage of someone and see how many people say, “Gee that’s a really neat thing you’re doing!”
Romantic gesture? Romance requires a relationship. This was purely sexual. I’ll have to keep this in mind:
“Your Honor. I know she was asleep when I stuck my hands down her pants and that she hadn’t said beforehand that it was OK. But I meant it as a romantic gesture! And she thought I was hot! I know she didn’t mind immediately and I have no idea why she changed her mind later.”
For romantic gestures I think roses are better. I don’t think Hallmark © makes cards for unconscious groping.
Okay, so here’s the core issue. You think people who have casual sex are sluts. So do I! That’s because I’m not getting laid at the moment. (My ethics are sufficiently situational that I don’t consider myself a slut when I’m getting laid.) That doesn’t make this creepy, though.
So what about when two drunk people have sex? It happens. All the time. That’s one of the signs that the law in question - while well-meaning and indeed something that addresses a legitimate concern - is not accomplishing precisely what is desired.
And yet, fundamentally it’s irrational for you to declare someone a rape victim who was actually present in the situation and knows what they were willing to do.
Some people don’t even realize how unhappy they are. How dare they smile?
How creepy was this, on a scale of 1 to 10? Somewhere between 0 and 11, depending on the specifics. If the “victim” had a great time, then I’m leaning towards a 1. But his behavior, while it may have netting him some good nookie this time, is risky.
And I think sex under the circumstances is perfectly OK…sometimes. Where does that leave us? To you sex always must be accompanied by violins and roses and romance. I don’t agree.
Besides, that isn’t quite the same thing as being woken up to sex. So you are changing the parameters. You can have that kind of sex while both of you are wide awake and sober.
The thread you linked to is a divorce issue and is related to money. It’s not even on the same wavelength.
I’m just saying we all draw our boundaries at different points. Just because you think it’s wrong to feel up an unconscious person doesn’t mean it IS wrong in every possible situation. All this seems to me is an effort to pass your personal moralities off as right for everyone else.
Should be “these” circumstances.
Since I’m posting here again anyway, tdn said it all in one sentence - the guy’s behavior is risky, yes. No one here is denying that…but at the same time who’s to say it’s altogether wrong? Everybody takes chances and regrets some of them, why do the rules change when it comes to sex?
So…how you doin’? Kidding!
My ethics are pretty static and I consider sexual activity outside of an established relationship empty. I know, Woody Allen said:
I never just hopped in the sack on the first date. I’m a little old fashioned when it comes to relationships and prefer to get to know the person before we go too far. We would make out but it was always mutual and consensual. My wife was a virgin until we were engaged because I respected her feelings about when would be the right time.
I’m no angel and I fooled around before I met my wife. But I never did one night stands. If someone else likes to do that, OK.
The self-esteem issue I see is someone who did not mind essentially being in a vulnerable position and having a stranger do something to them. That is also the creepy part. If lissener’s friend had woken up to find the guy jerking off over him or had woken up to find the guy just staring at him, he would have probably been creeped out. But because he was receiving a sexual act that he enjoyed, he said, “Meh, I’ll go with it.” If I woke up to a stranger doing it to me, even one I found attractive, I’d be worried about what kind of person this was. Do they get off on power? Do they like the whole “master/slave” thing? Were they turned on by me or by my helplessness?
IANAL but I think the law takes into account both parties have diminished faculties and will not prosecute. YMMV.
That’s right. It was not rape if the friend does not call it rape. Yet women have had sexual encounters they later regretted and have filed date rape charges.
If lissener’s friend wants to get handjobs from strangers from MySpace or anal probes by aliens while he is sleeping. OK. He looks back on the event with a wistful smile (and maybe a tinge of regret that he doesn’t remember everything) and thinks it is OK. But too many people have paid the price for casual encounters. They chalk it up to getting caught up in the moment or chemistry. When they get pregnant or an STD they look back and wish they had taken precautions. If they are physically hurt, they wish they had been more careful. If they are killed, they will never regret anything. But their friends might regret not offering better advice.
Maybe we are looking at this all wrong, from a politically correct standpoint… Although the gentleman in question is gay, he is still a guy… So let’s examine this from a typical hornball male perpective and change the 2nd person in question to a female:
If a guy goes out on a date with a female and wakes up to her fondling, most men would say they are defenitely up for a second date… To many of men, that would almost be an ideal date…
So is it creepy, yeah, kinda… Is he nuts for considering going out with the guy again? Probably not…
Ok, here’s my brief take on this.
What this guy did is no different than what we (out/urban guys) did in the 70s and early 80s. We had anonymous sex. Lots of it. Because we could. And there really were very few “respectable” venues for gay men to meet. There were the bars and the baths and the porn theaters, and in NYC, there were the trucks and the docks. Those were our options, and we utilized them.
Today there’s MySpace, which serves exactly the same purpose. Two people connect online and they meet. If neither of them runs away screaming, that pretty much constitutes consent. If you’re not interested in a particular person, you indicate your disinterest and move on. And I don’t ever recall anyone falling asleep who didn’t welcome someone’s advances – especially if the other person was hot. That’s the reality of anonymous sex, and I guess it always has been, even before my time.
Good for you.
I also love waking up to My Guy, who loves making love to me, whether I’m awake or asleep. We’ve been together, monogamously, for 18 years now, and from the beginning, it’s been the most “normal, healthy relationship” either of us has ever known. But it started with anonymous sex, without which we never would have met.
And I have no way of knowing what my sex life would be today, were I not coupled. In erie774’s opinion, I’d probably be “a little on the easy side,” though that beats being prudish and judgmental.
I understand this is common in the gay community. This anonymous, free hook up devastated the 80’s and 90’s. My uncle died in 1986 at the ripe old age of 33 from what was then called AIDS Related Complex (ARC) because he had anonymous hookups when he was between steady relationships. His “friend” (that was always what they called each other) died 2 years later because my uncle passed it to him. He in turn passed it to someone else. I have several gay friends who tell me that it is pretty common for guys to just go cruising just to get their rocks off for the night. You want to go scratch your itch, go ahead. Be careful about where you dip your wick and use precautions.
I’m not judging your sexuality or history. I’m glad that you are in a steady relationship and hope the two of you stay happy together. Hope you make it another 70+ and that the government let’s you legalize it. Why should we keep you from the suffering of marriage? 
Let’s remove the sex from this situation. lissener’s friend meets a guy on MySpace who will share expenses for a road trip. I would not feel comfortable sharing a room with a stranger but maybe they have no problem with it so they share a hotel room just to save money. In the middle of the night, lissener’s friend wakes up to find the stranger sitting by the window sharpening knives. Or jerking off in the next bed. Or sobbing in the bathroom. In other words, he is alone with a person he has never met, no one knows where he is and he has no idea about what is running through the mind of this stranger.
What this comes down to is not the sex. It is the fact that lissener’s friend voluntarily put himself into a potentially dangerous situation and writes it off because he got a handjob. The stranger could very well be a terrific person with a sparkling personality, snappy repartee and a sharp dresser to boot. Or he could be just some lonely guy looking for a few moments of sexual intimacy and release. Or he could be a lunatic who thinks it’s fun to add to the collection of spleens he keeps in the trunk of the ’73 Vega he stores in his mother’s garage.
I would not voluntarily put myself in a potentially dangerous situation like that. I’ve told friends who do stupid things like that to be careful. One didn’t and got pregnant after hooking up at a bar. Another got genital herpes. Another thought she was just going to go back to his hotel room for drinks and to discuss business (they were both at a sales conference), he raped her and then tried to club her with the telephone. She got away but he shattered her eye socket.
I like myself too much to put my life in the hands of a stranger.
I tend to agree that anonymous sex carries a risk, and it wouldn’t be my cup of tea, but more people are assaulted or murdered by spouses than by strangers, so, as scary as serial killers are, statistically you are safer sleeping with strangers, if your only concern is being murdered. At least it’s true for heterosexual relationships. I can’t find any stats on homosexual relationships.
Funny old world, ain’t it? You use your best judgment and you take your chances.