Its quite “well informed”. However, I meant exactly what I said and no more. My topic was improving Arab-US relations in the long haul. For this task, flat diplomacy will be useless. I do believe that.
Now, for building diplomatic and political ties, they may be more useful. But we’ll have to show them who we are first, before any real political alliance can take place.
Give it rest, sweetie. The adults are talking, m’kay?
blowero:
Fair enough. Does it not also suggest that Americans (and by extension, their evil chief world representative, George W. Bush) don’t necessarily view the Palestinians as “crazy Arab terrorists?”
Sorry, blowero, I’m just tired of being termed a racist or a redneck simply because I’m an American. Hopefully, that’s not what you really meant, but when you say “we will have to divorce ourselves from the notion that it’s ‘us vs. the crazy Arab terrorists, who only know hate and only understand violence,’” that’s how I, as an American, took it.
I concede that that ugly sentiment about Arabs does reside in the fringes of our culture. I just don’t think it represents mainstream American opinion.
I’ve noticed that the sweeping generalizations of American attitudes seem acceptable on this board. But they are as wrong as sweeping generalizations of Arabs, Muslims, or just about anyone else for that matter.
Isn’t Iraq an American country, now? 
Not yet… They say it might take about 5 years to do that. We need more time!
;j :dubious:
Seriously tho, why do we need to have anyone like the US? I hope for a peaceful relationship but I’d settle for a mutual agreement not to hurt each other.
All america wants is a market to sell stuff to and buy stuff from and a stable environment to do that with. Thats the cake and all the rest is icing.
Asinine responses, especially those lacking intelligence, wit, or even validity, aren’t doing your commentary any good, blow.
I didn’t mean to accuse anyone of being racist. I’m just referring to a general belief that seems to be prevalent among many Americans that the U.S. ought not to consider how our actions affect the situation in the Middle East, the reasoning seemingly being that Arabs “wouldn’t be happy no matter what we did”. I’m not saying we have to “give in to terrorists”, but I don’t see how it would hurt to give some consideration as to how our attitudes and actions will be viewed by the rest of the world; and along those lines, I think the Iraq offensive was ill-considered. I’ve heard many people suggest that Arab resentment of the U.S is based on jealousy, and that there is no rational basis for it; I really think this is an oversimplification. The Palistinians want a homeland; they aren’t just miffed because Americans have color TVs and they don’t. I also keep hearing the statement that their only goal is to “push the Isrealis into the sea”. Well, that seems obviously not true at this point in time. If we just dismiss the Palistinians as people who will never stop the violence until Isreal is completely gone, and are simply acting out of irrational hatred and anger, nobody’s going to get anywhere, right? We really need to get beyond arguing over which side is “right” and which side is “wrong”, and start seeing both sides of the coin.
How is what I said a “sweeping generalization”? I described a particular view that some people have that I think is wrong. As for what percentage of the population thinks this way, I don’t know. I’ve certainly come across it here on SDMB. If you also think that attitude is wrong, then we are in agreement, and I don’t see what the problem is. Your attempt to compare me to some sort of racist is just laughable.
And Monty, your little smart-ass comments aren’t contributing anything to this discussion; you are in fact just making a fool of yourself. I really wish you would stop.
If you mean like in that passive sense of not actively disliking, there is a direct connexion my innocent friend. Consumer boycotts, trouble in securing contracts… all these things arise. Whispering campaigns in the market can cost. Sainsbury’s took a $1 billion bath bec. of this in Egypt, for example.
It matters. Like, however, has all the issues noted prior.
AS for the bandit, I reiterate poorly informed and add bizarrely. Perhaps he can explain how one effects policy w/o diplomacy- although perhaps a unique idea of diplomacy is feeding this ludicrous observation.
What smartass comments, blow? I’ve made none. You, OTOH, have forgotten what forum you’re in.
This needs to go to the pit:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=182439
So how are we gonna get that when we’re the ones starting “pre-emptive” wars with nations that haven’t posed any threats to us?
And where was this sentiment of yours two months ago, when George W. Bush was gunnin’ for war?
blowero:
My post was not attempt to capriciously compare you to a racist. From your posting history, it’s obvious that you are not a racist.
Maybe it’s the shortcomings of the OP “How do we get the Arab countries to like (us),” whose underlying premise is “it’s all (or at least mostly) our fault” by default. Perhaps I just object to the premise, and blowero, that’s not your fault.
The simple fact is: ALL OF US - Europe, America, Israel, residents of the MENA region, have fucked up in one way or another.
I realize how debates usually evolve, but many of the posts on this thread just seem ridiculously one-sided polemics against America and by extension, Americans. This thread is not the place to debate who is “most” to blame - we all know how that will devolve along predictable ideological lines.
But I think we need to be more honest and less ideological when we have this discussion. In so doing, and by engaging residents of the MENA region in honest discussion, is how we get to the next honest discussion: What do we want from each other?
Actually, blowero, I think you were right on the money when you said…
…because I don’t think “us” and “them” will ever agree. Who cares?
We don’t have to agree on the past. We have to figure out what we both want in the future.
For now, thought, it’s reasonable to assert there IS something wrong in the region, and much of it is not necessarily “our” fault. By most objective standards, the Arab world HAS fallen behind. Both the residents and powers-that-be in the MENA region have much to answer for. Not as much to “us,” as much as to themselves. And as long as Arabs/Muslims and those in the West insist that “it’s all America’s fault”, Arabs/Muslims can stay comfortable ensconced in a culture of victimhood and never take responsibility for what they’ve done wrong.
To be fair, blowero, I’m not saying YOU yourself are portraying it as “all America’s fault”. I guess I’m more or less blaming the thread for fostering the wrong discussion.
Well this is the point: it gets to the stage where it’s not about laying blame, but finding a solution. It doesn’t matter now whose fault it is that there are big problems in Israel/Palestine: whether the Palestinians screwed up by not accepting the 1967 peace agreement, or Israel screwed up by its existence in the first place. What matters is that people living there on both sides are dying and a solution needs to be found.
Yes - we can and should learn from our mistakes. America needs to learn the error of what is seen as its bullying/arrogance, certain Arab countries need to learn the error of sponsoring terrorism or fundamentalism. But what is most needed is not punishment, but dialogue and cooperation. Recognition that no one’s hands are free of bloodstains, but that hopefully as the stains fade in time they won’t be replaced by new ones.
Istara - agreed.
The arguments about “who’s to blame” in the MENA region are interesting, but ultimately, kind of pointless.
I wish the same energy that goes into the argument about “who’s responsible for my father’s death?” would be applied to “how can we provide a better life for my children?”
ISTM that one key to peace is the future being more important than the past. Maybe in the MENA region, we need an inverse (corollary?) to Santayana’s quote, somthing along the lines of: “Those who forget history are blessed not to repeat it.”
A fundamental flaw in the discussion so far seems to be that Arab people don’t “like” the US. There is no question that to a dedicated Islamist, the US represents all that is evil in the world…chief among this is the concept that a government can exist independent of “God”.
In those Arab states that have secular governments, anti-Americanism exists because it serves the needs of the government (like Mubarek’s corrupt regime in Egypt). In a place like Turkey, the US is resented because it has such power over the Turkish government, and has produced economic hardship.
Yet, the fact remains that American culture is widely admired in the arab world, especially as the arab intellectuals are waking up to the fact that their culture has been a failure…little Finland (with 3 million people) has an industrial output that is greater than that of the entire arab world (not counting oil). That is a damning fact, and reveals the backwardness of the arab world.
So, there is resntment both socially and economically…surely that is why arab patriots constantly moan about the Crusades-which happened 700 tears ago.
So, the US is hated because:
-it espouses a government that is secular
-it is economically successful
-and (most grating) it has manged to divide the arab world, and end the regime of Saddam Hussein
Having said this, nations cannot “love” or “hate” eachother, that is solely on the individual level.
And so Ralph joins us with some confused maundering:
As far as I can tell you’re differentiating here between Arabs and Islamist. Not a bad start. Certainly the secularism of the US government is an annoyance factor to Islamists, but hardly chief of their concerns. They largely would not care about the US if they did not think -rightly in many cases- the US is propping up regimes they do not like for its own interests.
No, on this you are rather badly wrong. Fundamentally so.
Anti-Americanism rather serves the Egyptian government poorly insofar as they are closely id’ed with the US government. The Egyptian government sometimes plays along with this on an episodic basis (a) to gain advantage in negotiations, (b) try to align itself with popular sentiment on easy matters © sometimes bec. it itself disgrees with the Americans.
Anti-American sentiment in the Arab countries with secular governments has diverse roots, only some of which are official.
Arab intellectuals are hardly waking up to cultural failure. There is criticism of the politics, but culture is something else.
Regardless, admiration for aspects of American culture is a seperate issue from the politics.
Actually mentions of the Crusades is not that frequent and more used as an allegorical point in addition the rather more common critiques of colonialism and neo-colonial intervention.
Not really, it’s hated for supporting cynical faux-secular governments.
Not really, more along the lines of percieved intervention in Arab economies. Wealth alone is not really relevant.
Ending the Sadaam regime in the particular context and method, played into the pre existing neo colonial critique.
for ending our poor, benighted misunderstanding of the “arab” world!
You can always tell when colly’s blood pressure is up a point or two!
You’re quite welcome Ralph old man, quite welcome. Now if you’ll pay attention, that would be even more helpful.
We need to dispel the myth that Arab resentment of the U.S. is solely a product of Islamic extremism.
I agree, and in fact I think it proves my point. It is the POLICIES OF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT that are objected to, not U.S. culture in general. While there may be radical factions that object to secularism per se, that doesn’t appear to be main factor in Arab opinion. Check out this American Arab Institute poll from last year:
http://www.aaiusa.org/news/aainews103102.htm
I think it’s interesting to note the higher favorability in Kuwait. Even though the U.S. took military action there, we were not the aggressors, but rather were defending against aggression. It tends to show that U.S. foreign policy does affect opinion in the Arab world. They don’t just hate us “because we’re the U.S.”
In response to the OP, Arabs tend to be hostile to the US for a number of reasons. Before I list them, however, I should point out a caveat.
In general, their hostility is directed against Bush and the US administration rather than at American citizens. They do make a distinction. While Americans are regarded as fairly decent and likeable people and American culture is generally regarded as opulent and desireable, the US government is thoroughly reviled for its (perceived) domineering, bullying, arrogant, hypocritical and aggressive foreign policies.
In short, they love watching “Friends” and shopping at the GAP and eating at KFC, but believe that the Government is evil and that it hates Arabs and Muslims. However, hard-core Islamic extremists alse see American culture as corrupt and corrupting, and some of them even hold American citizens responsible for the evil perpetrated by their government because it’s a democracy.
Now. Their reasons for their beliefs are as follows:
Furthermore, they do not believe that the US truly wants democracy in Iraq, or anywhere else in the Middle-East, because the Muslim majority would then vote for an Islamic Government, and that is the one thing that the US hates and fears most. That’s why they gloomily expect to see a fake “Puppet Democracy” installed in Iraq, with (surprise, surprise) a US-friendly Chalabi at the head.
Perceived US bias - The US claims to be an impartial broker of peace in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, yet provides billions of dollars in aid and military hardware to Israel and turns a blind eye to the atrocities committed by the IDF. Either that or it recites formulaic condemnations that do not even amount to a slap on the wrist. Arabs believe that Israel is the US’s “Guard Dog” in the region, and that the US will do anything to protect and support Israel, regardless of how many atrocities they commit. This is because the pro-Israeli lobby has a huge amount of power in Washington, and that pro-Zionist policy therefore dictates American Foreign policy.
Perceived US arrogance - the US gives the UN the middle finger, while saying “support us, or we’ll do whatever the hell we want anyway - you don’t really matter.” The US basically believes that might is right, and that they can do whatever the hell they want because they have the most guns, and because whatever is good for America is good for the world. As the world’s only superpower, they wield a scary amount of power, and this apparently allows them to pursue unilateral and criminal foreign policies with impunity.
Perceived US aggression - The US leads the way in imposing genocidal sanctions against Iraq that cause the death of hundreds of thousands, then fabricates reasons for a pre-emptive war, and then invades an Arab nation that has never attacked them.
In short, in the popular Arab mind, the US touts itself as a bastion of freedom, democracy and civilization. The US holds itself up a a shining beacon of all that is good and noble, and as an example to be followed by all decent nations. However, despite its claims, the US behaves like a swaggering, arrogant bully. Anyone who disgrees with their policies is labelled a radical, a fanatic, or an appeaser of terrorists and Tyrants. It’s a case of “do as we say or we’ll hit you, and we’ll do whatever the hell we want.”
That’s why most Arabs don’t like the US.
As for possible solutions, that will be the subject of my next post.