How do we stop violence in our schools ?

This subject is scary for most people. If you have kids or if you are a teacher or if you love any of the previously mentioned (as I do), this can be a day to day issue. It is terrorism, plain and simple.

I will not justify the past by writing of it, but we all know what we are speaking of . . . Columbine.

This has become an epidemic. How do we stop the ignorant violent kids, and those who would copy them ?

I am at a loss as to what to do. This is now an epidemic. There has to be an answer. I look to the smartest group of individuals I know . . . you. The SDMB. I cannot say it will make a difference, but I can say that there has to be an answer. There just has to be. Help me with any thoughts you can supply.

I thank you,

  • NM

We can ban guns from private ownership. We can make the kids wear uniforms, and call their teachers ma’am and sir. We can put police in schools and metal detectors at the entry points. And start the day with The Pledge of Allegiance, and prayers. Then, restrict kids from any media which contains violence.

Yeah, right.

As I see it, two big changes need to happen; the media and society. First, the media has to stop sensationalizing these terroristic events, because doing so demonstrates to every kid in the nation just how much attention they can garner with a single pipe bomb or a hand gun. And for the terrorist, showing the world what you’re capable of is half of the objective. And the media does it for free.

When these tragedies occur, why does the media saturate us for weeks on end with the story? Does it help the victims? Does it comfort the survivors or the families of those who died such tragic and untimely deaths? Does it teach us how to live more safely or find solutions? No, no, and no. They do it because it sells. They learned with OJ Simpson, that people will watch the same story again and again as long as it is sensational. OJ provided the media their “news” for what - 2 years?

Changing the media might be a lot easier than changing society. What makes a kid want to shoot up a school and kill people? How did they get that way? One thing that seems common to a lot of these kid-terrorists is that they’ve been bullied, pushed around and picked on for a long time. Society needs to make this not happen, and I don’t know how.

When you say “ignorant violent kids,” are you referring to the shooters, or to the ‘popular’ kids who bully and harrass anyone who looks or acts different?

One of the first steps in preventing the end result (school violence, including both bullying and shooting) is figuring out what the root causes are. People claiming that banning trenchcoats and requiring school uniforms will stop violence are using throw rugs to hide a cracked foundation.

What are the root causes? I don’t know, but if I did, it would probably take more space to write out than this board could hold. I don’t believe that one simple answer exists any more than one simple kid exists.

–sublight.

I propose a new dress code. All children are to attend class nude. In colder climates they might need a heated undressing room near the front entrance.

This won’t stop all violence, but stop school shootings dead.

I remember hearing that the number of school shootings has actually been going down in recent years, just receiving more media attention in the wake of Columbine.

First off, I personally don’t quite yet believe it to be an “epidemic”. There’s what, twenty or thirty thousand or more elementary and high schools in America? (That’s just an off-the-cuff guess.) All with a total of what, twenty million students? More? I’m just guessing here…

But how many school shootings have there been? And let’s face it, that’s what we’re talking about, shootings. Not fistfights, or hazing, or bullying, or even gang battles.

There’s been what, eight or ten major shootings in the past ten years? The two recent ones in Cali, the infamous Colombine, the one in Arkansas… and… ?

Don’t get me wrong, each one is a tragedy, and I don’t wish to make light of any of them. But really, is it an actual “epidemic”, or is it merely a few sporadic and highly unusual events that are simply greatly overhyped and exploited by the mass media?

In Washington DC, a couple of druggies are killed each month, but does that make national news? Why not? Because they’re “just” drug dealers? Because it happens so often in DC that it’s not news anymore?
In LA, when Crip “A” shoots Blood “B”, why doesn’t that make nationwide headlines?

To get back to the original question, there IS an answer.
To paraphrease Bill Clinton, “It’s the Parents, Stupid!”

Yes, there’s a small aspect of violent media, a smattering of bad influence/peer-pressure from friends and schoolmates, and a badly undermanned and overwhelmed law enforcement aspect, but really, the key here is the kid’s parents.

If it were something simple like the highly erroneous claims of “easy access to guns”, then why didn’t we have hundreds of school shootings in the 50’s and 60’s? One could buy a firearm by mail order back then. Drugstores had gun sections, and it was perfectly legal for a 14-year-old boy to wander in and plunk down is cash for a rifle. Military surplus weapons could be bought for as low as $7 to $10.

Nowdays with computerized record keeping (a gun manufacturer has to keep records more scrupulously clean than cigarrette or booze makers- even ONE missing and unaccounted for can mean the revocation of license) instant background checks, federal forms, waiting periods, required picture ID, age limits and so on, there’s hardly an “easy” access to guns.
But now we have more school shootings… so what’s changed? Crime overall is down to levels lower than they’ve been in ten years. Firearm-related deaths are at the lowest levels since 1910 (!)

But firearm OWNERSHIP is at all-time highs.

So what’s wrong with the kids?

It’s not guns, knives or weapons. Such things are merely tools, all of which have been around for hundreds of years.
It’s not bullying either, because kids have bullied and been bullied since the dawn of schools themselves, probably longer.

Personally, I think the problem is both the parents themselves- and in many cases, the lack thereof of at least one- and our current ‘new age sensitivity’ “politically-correct” emasculated society.

Let’s face it, kids need to be spanked on occasion, but today that’s considered “child abuse” and there’s a DFYS branch poised on a springboard to yank your kids if anyone even suspects you raised a hand to your child.

Okay, so you can’t spank ‘im. Now what? Yell at him when he sneaks out and spray-paints swastikas on the neighbors’ car?
Nope, sorry, that’s verbal abuse. Can’t yell at Billy or you’ll hurt his self-esteem.

So now what? Ground him? Aaaaand what do you do when he sneaks out even though he’s grounded? Ground him some more? Can’t spank or slap him- and he knows it- can’t yell at him- and he knows it- so where’s the threat to make him think twice before breaking his curfew again?

And what’s worse, is that few parents even care that much. Single parents- assuming they even try to raise the kid well- are outnumbered. The parent tries to work, so the kid spends all day in the summers hanging out with friends (who are equally unrestrained by that niggling back-of-their-mind thought of “what would happen if Mom caught me?”) or all day at school… Eight or nine hours a day of negative influences cannot be undone or counteracted by an hour or two of “quality time” by even a determined parent.

And let’s face it, that parent spends half that time vegged out in front of the tube anyway, so much of even that minimal opprotunity is lost.

And there’s more- nobody’s responsible anymore, and the kids are learning that one fast. It wasn’t me, Billy did it. I only slugged him with a sawed-off pool cue because he called me a dirty name. I’m not responsible because Mom’s a coke addict. Daddy molested me when I was 12 so that’s why I became a serial rapist. Both my parents were alcoholics so I never really learend right from wrong… and so on and so on.

Bottom line: Raise the kid right and well, no problem. Let the TV babysit him, pay no attention to what he does or where he goes or who he hangs out with, and you get Columbine.

My own personal theory with no evidence to support it:

What makes today’s kids different from those of the past?

  1. They have less adult influence. Any responsible adult that a child can converse with can be a positive influence, but children simply have less contact with adults than in the past. Schools have more students and not as many more teachers, so each child gets a smaller slice of a teacher’s time than in the past. Families move around geographically more than they used to, so aunts, uncles, cousins, and grandparents are frequently too far away to maintain relationships. And more parents are spending more time working and recovering from working than they used to, partly due to single-parent households, partly due to both-parents-working households, and partly due to simple materialism. Children need exposure to adults who can show them by example what it is like to be a mature, rational, productive person. Children don’t get as much of that exposure as they used to.

  2. They have more peer influence. Kids (especially around puberty) have always formed peer groups. It is a natural behavior that gives them a larger pool of possible future mates to choose from. However, because children spend less time among adults, these peer groups have become more influential than they should be. Kids spend too much time learning and imitating and picking up habits from other kids who aren’t any smarter than they are. And the peer groups themselves have become larger. The larger student populations in many schools increase the social importance of the peer group and decrease the importance of the individual.

  3. They have bad role models. Kids will always choose their own role models. It doesn’t matter if professional athletes or celebrities say they don’t want to be role models, if they appear frequently in the mass media then some kids somewhere will admire them. Also, in the past the media was more critical of bad conduct by famous people, or it was not reported at all. But now more profits can be earned by frequently publicizing scandals. And the ability of celebrities to repeatedly make public their outrageous behavior and still remain celebrated can become an admirable quality to kids who don’t have adults around to tell them that most celebrities are just nuts.

Here are a couple of relevant threads you’ll meet over in Great Debates:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=64727

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=62334

It doesn’t seem like an epidemic to me either–not many schools affected.

There was an interesting commentary in the Washington Post a couple of weeks ago. The author simply said that some of the blame for these copy cat shooters should be placed on the media. He(?) suggested that the media should step back and take a good look at their own policies. For instance, the media does not cover teen suicides in the same manner which they cover shootings, for obvious reasons. Read this for further insight:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62929-2001Mar13.html

The odds of a child/teacher being killed in school are very very very low. The odds are much lower than the odds of almost any other bad thing you can think of. eg car accident, cancer, etc… This should not be a day-today worry. In fact, there was a study on the CNN about 6 months ago that showed kids were much safer in school than they were out of school. And my almanic shows that teaching is one of the safest jobs in america. IIRC, the almanic showed that more teachers die each year from falling down type accidents in school than die from being murdered in school.

I always thought of terrorism as a semi-organized system of violence with a political goal. (eg N. Ireland) If there is a political message I would think that it is that school bullies (students and teachers) should leave people alone.
But I don’t think this really qualifies a terrorism.

see above. There is no epidemic. How do we stop people from killing each other? (I said people and not kids, because it only recently that we’ve dicided that teenagers are still children) Anyway, it’s an impossible goal but that dosn’t means we shouldn’t try. I would likely propose all sorts of lefty ideas about union jobs, national health insurance, shorter work weeks, drug treatment programs, real public television, etc… This would tend to make a more stable society with less violence.

It’s not an epidemic. And there is no answer that is politically possible. The left wing has lost their way, and the right wing has only business interests in mind. In fact school shooting help the right in their push for ‘school choice.’

Personally, I blame (if blame I must) myself. I haven’t been active in my own nieces and nephews’ lives in the past couple of years. Hardly know what age they are at, much less how they are handling growing up. I don’t hear much from their parents either, but a good chunk of that is MY lack of communication with my own stepsiblings. Out of 16 kids, I only chat with 1…send him a book or two for his birthday and Easter, a card and a gift for Christmas. Do I remember what grade he’s in this year? No. Do I know how he’s adjusting to his newest baby brother? uh-uh. Does he even have a clue who his Auntie really is? hrmm…uh, maybe part of the answer is laughing at me in my own mirror.

The irony is tangible. The media, my parents, my culture have trained me well to look for culpability. But somehow I missed out on who. I’m sure there’s someone to blame for that self-lack, too, however, so I’ll stop being so self-mocking, self-abasing here and start looking for the culprit. (Or maybe not. I like self-sarcasm.)

LE

ps: Does the Media and its more insidious cousin Propaganda, really have power over anyone unless they consume it wholesale…and beg for more? Sounds like a tummy ache in the making.

End compulsory school attendence for all ages, or at least lower the legal dropping out age to 14 – then the desperately unhappy kids,the bullied ones and the social outcasts, could leave. But let them drop back in when/if they want to.

My daughter graduated from High School with honors last year. I’m not saying this to rub in anyone’s face, just to make the point that 1) she has never killed anyone at school and 2) she was never killed or wounded by anyone at school.
I think she is still in the majority so I don’t think it really is an epidemic… but that being said there appears to be a real problem out there. When I went to school 30+ years ago we didn’t go around shooting at each other. There was violence in school… but it was mainly limited to bullies beating up kids like me. I wasn’t happy about it… but I didn’t plan on killing anyone either. I was taught that killing was wrong… or at least stupid.

Why does this seems to be happening so much more now than before?

  1. Some kids feel disconnected from the rest of the world… always have, always will.

  2. Some parents let kids do pretty much what they want and don’t monitor their activities very closely. Churches play a much smaller role in kid’s lives than they use to.

  3. Guns are available to anyone who wants to buy one.

  4. Money is available to kids who want to buy weapons.

  5. Kids, especially boys, play lots of violent video games that glorify death and killing.

  6. Schools tolerate levels of hate and violence much more than they should.

  7. Kids aren’t really punished by schools for harassing the weaker kids.

  8. The schools don’t have the money for counselors to look for problem kids.

  9. TV and movies glorify violence. The media is part of the problem.

  10. The guys who blew up the Federal Building are heros to some kids these days.

I’d like to amend my earlier comment…
**"The left wing has lost their way, and the right wing has only business interests in mind. In fact school shooting help the right in their push for ‘school choice.’ "
**

Instead i want to say that both political parties are so corrupt that the good people on the left and the right will not be able to solve this problem.

As stated in the above post. Guns are less available than they used to be.

I also want to restate what another poster said. Rates of homocide in school and out of school for people of all ages have been on the decline for about 20 years.

BADTZ MARU FOR PRESIDENT

Not to mention truancy would no longer be a problem. Although bathroom breaks would take a little longer.:slight_smile:

Dolphinboy,

I just realized that your comments about school violence and the availability of guns today is not related to guns in the past. Sorry, I do not want to turn this into a guns debate.

Could someone please explain to me what, exactly, this was doing in GQ? No matter, it’s fixed now.

Actually, I don’t really think there is a “epidemic.” There were 52 deaths as a result of school shootings in the 1992-93 school year compared to only 4 in the 1999-2000 school year. (http://www.religioustolerance.org/sch_viol.htm)

And forget the Ten Commandments. I can’t really think of some kid walking down the hall spraying bullets and then stopping and saying, “Oh . . .Thou shall not kill?!?!? What the hell am I doing?” C’mon.

All right, here is my theory: (Or just move down to ‘So just to recap.’)

My grandparents were married when my grandmother was on seventeen. They just celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary March 3. Why was that able to work? Simple. Back then kids hit puberty around 15-16 (no site for any of these, sorry), and they matured mentally a year or two later. Now they are hitting puberty around 12-13 (some as low as 8-9 but that in another thread) but do not mature mentally until their 20’s (alcohol poisoning anyone?). I think this is usually covered up by the “keeping them innocent,” phrase.

Back, a LONG time ago you were married when you were 14-15 (they say the Virgin Mary was 13). I realize times have changed but I believe kids still have that CAPACITY. Now fast forward about a millennia or two. Our kids are not allowed any freedom, can’t drink (look at Europe), can be searched at the whim of the school system and are considered ignorant. They are considered ignorant because they ARE ignorant. We have had all responsibility taken away from us in this effort to “keep kids innocent” so when we need to be responsible, we DON”T KNOW HOW.

How does this apply to killer kids? They won’t be responsible because they have never been held responsible before. They don’t know how to make sound decisions because they have never had to.

So how do school districts respond? The morons take away MORE freedom. So shooters have a choice. Stay on the up and up and still have their rights stripped away and be searched without probable cause at the whim of the administration. OR . . . shoot their classes still have their rights stripped away and be searched without probable cause at the whim of the administration. (Do I hear an echo?)

I just turned 18 and let me tell you, I’m not sure I really give a flying f*** anymore. I’m NOT going to shoot up my school but whether I do or not I’m treated like a criminal. What reason do I have to stay in the right? NONE

So just to recap:
It is the lack of teens HAVING responsibility, not their lack being responsible, the utter lack of incentive to be good, and being innocent doesn’t have to mean being ignorant.

Thanks for reading.

First of all I don’t think that you are going to stop it.

Hopefully you can keep it at a minimum. There has always been violence in school. 40 years ago there was violence.80 years ago there was violence.

The difference is the shooters do not care who they hurt. If they did they would be selective.

It is a lashing out at society.They are telling us that they don’t see things getting better.

I believe that if you look at those doing the shooting you will find that they are the more priviledged doing it.

It is not the impoverished kid that opens up on his classmates.

Why?

I can only guess so here it is.

The impoverished kid is more worried about how to live day to day.
The yuppies kid is worried about how he/she looks to others.More about what clothes to wear rather than do I have a clean shirt. More about where should I go out to supper tonight than whats in the fridge.

Are they in fear of getting beat up? The kid in the projects has felt that everyday of his life.

Are the jocks getting all the attention? Just think how that projects kid feels. His shoes have holes in them. His mom uses food stamps so he has something to eat.Buys clothes at the used clothing store.

Maybe we give our kids too much.
Maybe if they saw the struggles of others it would make their own seem minor.
Maybe we are substituting monetary things for our time that should be spent with them.

I don’t know, maybe.