The local church group that I have been involved with is highly religious in terms of Christianity.
The quote the bible and try to use it to apply to today’s circumstance’s
Any argument against what this group says always goes but it is in the bible so it must be true.
An example is that they say that many predictions in the bible came true and the odds of that being right are about 1e18 of being correct.
Then they will go through numerous points where the bible vaguely made a prediction and then because it was recorded in the bible, then it must be true.
Or when asking if a god exists, they will turn around and say what evidence do you have that it does not exist and it becomes a circular argument.
Really nice people and I am trying to see their point of view and I get into argument after argument with them on this and then we come no definite conclusion.
Most of the principles of what they go by are fine with me but they can be very rigid and stubborn in their views especially when challenging their arguments.
I don’t want to overly annoy them but I think I have annoyed them with my constant bickering against their arguments.
How does an agnostic person deal with them?
Some of these people are great friends and I don’t want to overly annoy them which I think I have done unintentionally?
Or am I opening just causing problems by arguing with them
Just smile. Don’t respond. Obviously if you spend time with, and like them, it doesn’t matter to you that on some things your views differ. Good for you! That’s how mature adults operate.
I had to walk away from a friendship, when the friend – a very good person, I hasten to add – was unable to change the subject. Her faith was the only thing she was willing to talk about. I coped with that for a while, then, as politely as possibly, told her, “I’m just not that interested, thanks.” It ended the friendship, but at least it ended peacefully. She was able to accept that we really didn’t have anything in common.
With the people you’re dealing with, try, “Can we talk about something else? Hey, football season is getting serious. Nice weather. Do you like brussels sprouts?” Anything.
If they can, then you have the basis for neutral conversations. If they can’t, walk away from them, peacefully and politely.
Don’t bother arguing with 'em. It’s faith-based. Argument doesn’t work. (Would argument make you like brussels sprouts?)
I joined the group to make new friends and to understand how they think and to see how other people deal with mortality especially since I am getting older (47 years old now).
Yea, I don’t understand. Why are you involved with this church group to begin with, as an agnostic? The simplest way to not bicker with someone about their religious beliefs is to not bicker with them about their religious beliefs. Minds a changed a sparingly.
It sounds like you truly want to be friends with this group, so I think it’s very important for you to be respectful of how they want to spend their time, and not just how you want to spend their time (i.e. with arguments and bickering). I would talk to the pastor and ask for some recommendations on some books and articles you could read, or maybe recordings to listen to. Then discuss these things with the pastor or an individual in the group who seems to really enjoy a debate. Of the very religious people I’ve known, some love a spirited debate and some just want to worship in fellowship with other believers, and it’s important to respect these differences. I’ve also known very religious people who are quite capable of socializing with non-believers, so if you like these people then I’d invite them to do things with you that you enjoy doing, and assuming all parties can amiably agree to disagree on certain matters, you can have fun with them going to a ball game or whatever. You are trying to pursue spiritual questions and trying to develop friendships, and I’m suggesting that you might do better to think about them separately with this group.
I opened this thread thinking my reply would be “How? Heck - I’m one of them”. But reading the OP I have some sympathy. For some people like me, there is a fellowship in a church setting other kinds of clubs and organizations just don’t quite fill. I’m on the way-left-liberal side of Christianity and a majority of my fellow Christians lean pretty far right. As a result I found myself first shopping for a better denomination and then for the congregation that fit me best. It may be worth you doing something like that. The true friends you made will still be your friends; the zealots will fall aside. And the new friends you make may turn out to be terrific.
I’m not sure if I’m justified in this opinion, but I think I find this OP extremely hypocritical.
Highly religious people are just as entitled to their world view as agnostics are. So my advice is to get off your high horse and leave them to hold their opinions, just like you wish to hold your own. There is no evidence that one of you is more correct than the other. So live and let live and all that jazz.
Maybe you should consider the counter-religion and join cryonics or rationalist groups instead? The main difference between cryonics/rationalist groups, btw, is that nobody is completely certain it’s going to work. What we do know is the odds of you coming back from the dead, based on known evidence, is exactly zero if your body is destroyed using conventional practices. A rational view of the function of the brain and objective reality (which contains various nuggets like “the laws of physics are the same everywhere”, which means that if your brain is composed of the same particles as everything else, and you can retain the relative positioning of those particles, you can build a machine that gives the same I/O activity as the brain…) says the various forms of brain preservation have a possibility of working.
Religious people are wrong. Full stop. Cryonics group acknowledge they might be wrong, but religious people are actually, definitely, (100 - 1/infinity) wrong about basically everything.
You joined a church group and now you’re complaining that all they can talk about is religion? Isn’t that like going to a comics store and complaining that they don’t sell vegetables?
I’m 57 and I joined a group of guys who discuss similar deep topics. Our meeting place is a bar. We do not even require members drink alcohol; one dude drinks various fruit juice/soda water concoctions, he’s kinda a heretic.
Yes, I am being hypocritical and yes I have talked to the pastor and others in his group and yes they have pointed at books to read or websites to visit which I have done.
The question that I am getting at is whether anything I do or say really matters.
The pastor and his people say to do the right thing.
What is the right thing to do?
That is the question that I am struggling with and I don’t have an answer to that.
No, there is little chance that anything you say or do matters - if my “matters” you mean will have a chance of affecting how these folk think.
Congrats on giving this a shot. I wager you learned something - and grew - from the experience. But you ought to consider whether this is the particular wall against which you wish to hammer your head.
There are many “liberal” churches where discussion is welcome. (Tho, if you are in a rural area, they might not be nearby.) But if this is a certain type of congregation, it is you who is in the wrong for thinking you can come into their house, and start picking apart what they hold dear.
A far trickier issue is how to deal with religious folk in settings outside of their church. IME, the nonbeliever either has to suck it up, hide their doubts, and accept a bunch of proselytizing, or risk losing the religious folk as friends.
As a firmly entrenched Christian with an agnostic daughter, I have some perspective on your question. We do discuss religion, more generalities than specifics. I tell her my position, while not stating I think she should just accept it. She tells me her position and we discuss the differences. Most laypeople in churches when they are discussing how prophecies come true or proof of prophecies coming true do not have a good enough understanding of the Bible and its historical or religious context to make a better argument than it is in the Bible so it must be true. It takes much more study and understanding of history, languages, and theology than most laymen are willing or able to understand. If you base your arguments in trying to change their mind, you are definitely going to aggravate the other group members. If you base your arguments from a perspective of trying to understand, in most instances you will not get understanding or even a complete explanation. Their belief is probably mostly based on faith and it can not be explained beyond that. Still the discussions they have with you may open them up to a explore further study in their belief and that is a good thing for them. It may open you up to explore your beliefs further as well and that is good for you.
In summary, make sure you ask questions from a learning direction rather than an antagonistic direction and most will be willing to continue. If you wish to discuss other topic, just remember for many persons of faith, there is no part of their life not colored by religion and it may always be included somewhat in any deep type discussion.
If that won’t work for you, find another group, or make arrangements to meet the folks that you especially like outside the church group to further other interests where you may have more in common,
