Unfortunately, not only does Wisconsin not offer health benefits or other recognition of same-sex marriage, the law forbids state funds from being spent on such benefits. It’s also illegal for one partner of a same-sex pair to adopt the other partner’s children and there is case law on the books that denying marital benefits to same-sex partners is both legal and constitutional.
Right now Vermont is the only state that offers “civil union,” which is the same-sex equivalent of civil marriage, although so far it’s not recognized by the only other state where there’s been a court challenge involving it (a custody/visitation case). California has as of 1/1/02 greatly expanded the rights of same-sex couples but have not gone as far as civil unions. There’s a lawsuit in Mass. right now seeking to force the state to issue marriage licenses or create civil unions in that state.
As for my opinion on homosexuality? I gotta give it a big “thumbs up.”
Not only that, but there are a large number of people trying to pass DOMA federally to get a constitutional amendment to the effect that gay people are forbidden from ever having their marriages recognized, making the US the only country (I believe) to have homophobia specifically enshrined in the constitution.
Total number of states required to pass a constitutional amendment: 38.
Total number of states that already have a DOMA: 34.
Humour me, matt, as you clearly understand my country’s polictics (or at least this segment) much better than I. What’s DOMA? Googling the term only made me wonder what Greek Real Estate had to do with the problem!
PS - Notice how I “Canadianized” the first word out of respect to y’all up thar?
Well, it’s nice to know that generalizations reign supreme once again. Here I was stupidly thinking that everyone was different.
Fine, great. Do what you like. Here’s the thing, though: we aren’t all (bisexual men) about sleeping around with members of the opposite sex when we aren’t in bed with our male mates.
Stop generalizing, please? It’s hurtful. Trust me:( I mean, good grief, you as much as told me that were we of similar age and were you single, you wouldn’t date me because of my sexuality.
“I don’t, and wouldn’t, date a bisexual man because they can’t be monogamous” is a generalization that hurts. “The bisexual men I have met can’t be monogamous with another man, which makes me cautious when I fool around/get into things with one” is not a generalization and doesn’t hurt nearly as much. It just means that the ones you’ve met haven’t been too cool, which is a pity. But cripes, man, we aren’t all about the random flings.
Isn’t it counterintuitive to the whole fight for acceptance not to date someone because of their sexuality?
Lastly: Were I to be with a man permanently, I would be open to the possibility of doing something (with him/if he didn’t mind, whatever) with a woman, but I would also be quite content staying with him forever. Maybe that’s the difference; I don’t see men as “fun, but not for me except as flings”. I’ve seen at least one (that I can remember) as a possible partner.
Defense Of Marriage Act, i.e. “two gay men who’ve lived together for twenty-five years can’t get married but a guy can still get drunk in Vegas and marry a hooker at the Elvis chapel! The sanctity of marriage is saved!” - Lea Delaria
In other words, a constitutional amendment saying no gay marriage, ever.
Well, you’ve slain a tiny bit of ignorance, matt and Otto.
Otto, I’m going to have to call the Wisconsin colleague who told me about the same-sex medical benefits. Either I misunderstood her and they were for opposite-sex couples living together, or I heard correctly and it’s something specific to my company’s Wisconsin branch (you specified state funds as being verboten). Or I’m completely full of crap and just haven’t realized it yet. All three are entirely possible.
matt, had you told me what DOMA was before telling me how many states had passed one, I’d have assumed that it was a bit of fervor restricted to the Bible Belt states. Frankly, I’m surprised. I had thought social progress was in general moving in a positive direction in my country. Thanks to this thread, I’m a little bit more informed. Perhaps I’ll go back and read Esprix’ famous threads (this being the latest) for more info, though I admit to having been daunted by the TMI prospect in the past.
Well, quietgirldownthehall and I will be celebrating our three year anniversary on the 13th, so I guess that about sums up my thoughts on homosexuality.
Ah, DOMA. Never has a more ridiculous and directly unconstitutional bit of hate legislation enacted since… well, if I thought about it the answer would probably be “since the year before DOMA was enacted” but whatever.
Jennifer and I will be getting a civil union at some point in the future. And the thing about it is that as soon as you step outside of Vermont, it’s a worthless piece of paper, and we’re never going to live in Vermont. But I think it’s important just the same.
When I was in Guy School, back in the late forties and early fifties, in small town Texas, I was heavily indoctrinated against gay men. My chief mentor was what we used to call a “mans man” and I admired and respected him unreservedly. The things he taught me about gay men were (and are) simply incredible. In the absence of other instruction, I believed what he told me about gay men. For years, I treated them with open contempt and beligerent hostility. Then, I went to work in a very upscale department store in downtown Dallas and got to know a few gay men. I learned that my mentor had been totally and completely wrong, bigoted, and homophobic. Today, intellectually, I regard gay men as being simply human, with preferences that don’t match mine. Emotionally, I haven’t been completely able to overcome being nervous and tense in their company, unless and until I know them personally. I guess I still have some residual Texas “macho” to overcome.
Well, I’ve just read Esprix’ fourth ATGG thread in its entirety. I learned some things, but not a ton I didn’t know. I suspect there may be more “state of gay rights” information in the earlier threads, but if I don’t start paying bills and running errands, I won’t make it to ChiDope tomorrow. And that would be serious ignorance!
I am so loving this thread. First I was afraid all the responses were going to be along the lines of “It’s all good. Whatever.” But I have to applaud all the people who admit to feeling a little uncomfortable around homosexuals. Their honesty was great.
As far as my views, they are ever changing as my life progresses. For the record I am a 30-ish male, born and raised in the rural Midwest. I can distinctly remember watching Torch Song Trilogy many years ago and being shocked to see Matthew Broderick passionately kissing another man. That sparked my fascination with this other culture I knew nothing about. I would pickup the bits of lingo, watched the flicks (not porn, mainstream stuff ~ Pricilla Queen of the Desert That sort of thing), met some great people, but never felt the attraction to other men. Until, that is, I started watching Queer as Folk. I can now appreciate the beauty in the male form. Prior to this I thought of a guy’s body as more of a clunky, hairy, ugly thing. But the series is shot in such a way that makes be understand. This is a fair recent discovery of mine and I don’t know if there is anything deeper meaning to be found. Who knows, hopefully it’s all going good.
Oh and with the civil union stuff that’s been said too.
For those who don’t know, Henri David is wealthy jeweler who holds a marvelous Halloween ball each year. The amount of time and effort put into some of the costumes is mind-boggling.
As a big fan of Halloween, I love the ball. I feel at home, among kindred spirits.
I've come to realize that I've let my interactions with the many members of the GBLT community(cause I can't think of a better phrase right now) at the ball, shape my feelings about the community as a whole.
I was an outcast in school. I'm used to being on the outside looking in. At Henri's ball, I was on the inside. I could relate to these people. I felt accepted.
This slowly changed into the hope that I could find the acceptance I wanted in the gay community-to finally find a place where I belong.Even though I know that's untrue, it's a hard thing to give up. As a result, I find myself attributing positive qualities to gays.
Other than that put me down in the- your sexual orientation is no big deal column.
[QUOTE] Originally posted by gobear [ul][li]I don’t much care for bisexuals. []Bi folks get all the privileges of hetero relationships, but they also want to have some same-sex fun without the complications. []I have yet to find a bisexual man who treted same-sex relationships as seriously as they did hetero relationships. []I were single now, no way would I ever date a bi guy. Period. []I would never get serious about a bi guy because he would always yearn for what I could never give him[/ul][/li][/QUOTE]
You’re entitled to your opinion. It’s just like alot of men who avoid bears, because they tend to be fat, kinky-pigs who are into pain, bondage, body odor, etc. My sterotypes & opinions are different … from a static sexuality debate. Basically; [ul]
[li] Alot of self-described bi’s are not bisexual.[]Both the gay and straight communities question or doubt the authenticity of bisexuality.[]Bisexuals are often defined as perverted, non-selective, insatiable sex addicts.[]Bisexality is often confused with polyamorous behavior.[]Bisexuality (the ability to have deep, meaningful sexual relationships with either gender) is a gift.Most (not all) bisexuals consider their sexuality a liability.[/li][li]There are some date-able, attractive, well-adjusted, confident bi-partners out there…just not in large numbers.[/ul]Bi’s are by no means perfect, who is? Most bi’s would find disagreement with (at least one) my personal stereotypes or opinions. But that’s the way I view things. Sterotypying in-and-of-itself isn’t destructive. Everyone needs thicker skin & should attempt to abandon this whole “group-think” mentality as best they can. [/li]
On the other side of the coin, people have to get over their hyper-sensitivity toward others’ opinions and personal firewalls. Everyone’s free to think whatever they wish in this nation. The dirty little secret is; most sterotypes have their foundation in truth or fact…otherwise, where did they come from? I doubt it was some ancient committee of perfect arbiters.
Use your own personal stereotypes anyway you deem fit, just keep in mind we’re all individuals; Don’t fall into the trap of refusing to find the exceptions to the ‘rules’, because if you do, you’ll be adding nothing to the enrichment of your life’s experiences.
When it comes to bisexuals, a lot of people are all too happy to pass judgement on them, despite having never been in their shoes. Try thinking about it from their perspective, and you’ll probably find it’s not all a bed of roses.
One of my best friends is bisexual, and we tend to talk about these things in great detail. Some of the things he told me have been heart-wrenching to listen to. He gets very upset about the fact that, when he’s with a man, he wants a woman, and when he’s with a woman, he wants a man. In essence, he feels like he’s being pushed from pillar to post all the time, not that he has the best of both worlds. He doesn’t want to have his cake and eat it, he wants to settle down with one person and share the rest of his life with him/her. But, no matter who he partners up with, it doesn’t feel right.
My friend admitted that he’s very envious of me. I’m gay through and through, and don’t have any inner conflict on this issue in the way he does. He can’t deny either of the two sides to his sexuality, despite the fact that they clash and get in the way of each other. Unlike me, he’ll always be confused about his sexuality, and will never feel comfortable with it. I just find the idea of that incredibly sad. He’s a really great guy, and would make someone a lovely “other half”, but he’s the first to admit that he can’t see that ever happening. To him, being bisexual isn’t carte blanche to play “switch”, it’s a curse.
While I count my blessings I have things much easier, I could never criticise him for the way he is. It would tear me apart if a man left me for a woman, but I can still see things from his perspective. All I know is that I wouldn’t want to be in his shoes.
“Bisexality is often confused with polyamorous behavior.”
Being both polyamorous and bisexual, I can definitely say that polyamory is not about mere behavior. It is about relationships and the promises you make & keep (rather similar to monogamy save that polyamorous folk are open to loving more than one person in the romantic arena). Interestingly, I’ve never run across anyone who has told me that bisexuality is somehow meshed with being polyamorous. Granted, I know quite a few poly people who are bisexual, but I also know poly folk who are heterosexual, both men and women alike. However, to one who is either unfamiliar or prejudiced against either polyamory or bisexuality, I can understand how one of that mindset may very well confuse the two.
I’m don’t really take that much issue with the phrase “polyamorous behavior” but truthfully, I had to wonder if people would also consider monogamy to be a kind of behavior, (or if a double standard was being applied). Kind of like how anything NOT heterosexual is considered a choice but heterosexuality itself is considered “the given.”
I can’t believe that this went without comment before. Essentially, I’d like to start by saying that that middle paragraph is bullshit. I’m sorry, and this is not meant to reflect on you, k2dave. The fact is that defining gay marriage seperately is just another part of the problem, as is defining marriage as only being a union between a man and a woman. That definition is crap, as is your statement that if there were another term for it, you’d use that. Why? They are the same thing, according to your last statement! A marriage is the most important union that two loving people can have. You define it as “more a moral contract commitment that God has witnessed.” Now, if it is reserved for only straight couples, where does that leave the gay couples? According to what you have said there, a gay union is less deserving of the same sort of respect and witnessing than a heterosexual one. You are saying that it is not the same kind of commitment, witnessed by God, as a heterosexual marriage. Yet, you are saying that you support equal rights in a union for homosexual couples. Sorry, but your statement about the “defense of marriage” as a term reserved for same sex marriage belies that.
A marriage is a marriage regardless, and only by accepting homosexual marriage as such will it be truly possible to have an institution of equal rights for unions of either same or opposite sex couples. The very word, “marriage” simply carries too much baggage to disallow it to couples of the same sex, even with equal rights under the law. You see, equal rights under the law is only the very first step in the process to ensure equality for everyone, regardless of sexual orientation.
From the time I was seventeen on, I’ve had plenty of gay/bi friends- a statistical anomaly (or not) due to my hanging out with the “art” crowd. I’ve always been bookish, and a lot of my favourite writers are gay/bi. Around that age, I picked up the idea gay = better, although as for myself, I’m strictly heterosexual, as far as I can tell. I used to feel terribly guilty and somehow inferior because of it. Didn’t help that a lot of my friends were jokingly contemptuous of “breeders.” So I have a lot of sympathy for gay teens/closeted gays.
A lot of people (cow-orkers, mostly) tend to assume I’m gay, possibly because I’m soft-spoken and can’t abide homophobes. “You must be gay, because you always complain when people disparage homosexuality.” Right. And I’m a Chinese Jew as well, by logical extension.
What the world needs is a lot less abstracted divisions between groups of people. (Wow, what a revolutionary idea. :rolleyes: )
[sub]Come to think of it, I’ve always been a slight gender-bender- I was the only boy in the modelling-school that I went to as a child. :o[/sub]
I haven’t read this thread, but I’m posting anyway. I’m strictly hetero. I wouldn’t even do anal with a girl. It’s just that I don’t like the idea of feces on my penis. It just seems… oogie. But that’s just me. I know other people do it, both hetero and gay; but that’s their business.
I fell in love with a girl once. We were perfect for each other. We both love aviation, we both like the same music, we both like deserts and mountains… But we both like girls. She led me on for a long time. Way too long. I thought she was bi, but she was strictly for the ladies. Eventually she got a new girlfriend (she’d “cheated on me” two or three times that I know of) and I decided I’d only talk to her if she called me. I was tired of being the one to call, the one whose birthday was always forgotten, the one whose schedule at to fit around the other’s; and when it became painfully obvious to even my thick, naiive and trusting brain that there was no future here, that was that.
So how do I feel about homosexuals? Well, lesbians remind my of her. It makes me sad. But it’s not their fault. I’m the one who was deluding himself. I’m the one who allowed himself to be led along for so long. Although she did string me along, it was I who fell for it.
So I don’t have problems with homosexuals. Live and let live, sez me. I work with homosexuals of both sexes and we all get along. If we’re talking and someone says, “Oh, my same-sex boy/girlfriend did this or said that” it’s just a normal part of normal conversation. I just don’t need to hear the details of their lovemaking. (For that matter, I don’t want to hear the lovemaking details of straight people either.)
But since the one woman I ever fell in love with happened to be gay, lesbians make me sad.
