[hijack] You’re goddamned right it’s not. It’s a group (or is it just that one very, very angry man and his poorly-designed web site?) obsessed with “shutting down AA” - as if that were possible - rather than focusing on helping people recover. He also sucks at debating. RR = Rabid Resentment. [/hijack]
This is a cultural thing. This side of the Atlantic, it’s getting drunk with one’s friends is one of the ways of having a good time. Sure, I can have fun without booze, but personally I prefer drink-assisted socialising - and so does pretty much everyone else I know.
Ah, the thread is back from the mystic page two, where I thought nothing ever returned from. 
Greg was talking to me about it the other night again and he keeps pushing this thing because I just don’t see it.
I was out with Stu the other day, and in the nine hours that we spent together, the guy had about four drinks. We just chatted up a storm.
Especially from hearing some of your stories here, I feel that he is just a social drinker, which makes me want to slap Greg upside the head for being so judgemental.:mad:
It all comes down to addiction IMO.
If you’re not addicted you’re not an alcoholic. Sure you may be a bad drinker and even turn into a fruitloop when pissed but that’s another problem IMO meaning that you should look at whether you drink of not but not because you’re an alcoholic.
If you actually need a drink(of any volume) to cope/get on with your life then you’re an alcoholic if not you’re not.
Oh and Greg’s a dick. By his reasoning over half the population of Ireland/UK/Australia and the rest are alcoholic.
Thank you Yojimbo - I don’t think I could have put it better myself.
Especially that last sentence.
This question became very relevant to me over the past couple of years. Back in late 2000, I decided I was an alcoholic and would go cold turkey. Because my drinking behavior had started to scare me, I had made a fool of myself too often at social occasions, and I hid my drinking.
So, I stopped drinking. I didn’t drink for three years and it wasn’t hard. I never had any cravings. The only thing that was hard and bothered me were my friends. They really clung onto the alcoholic label, babied me and worked around my “addiction” (changing locations if hanging out in a bar was called for etc.)
This past year I decided that I’m not an alcoholic because
- I don’t having cravings and never went through withdrawal.
- Labels are easy but finding causes are hard.
- My drinking behavior was basically trying to medicate away personal unhappiness. That I worked through thanks to therapy - and will continue to work through the rest of my life.
- I can have one drink.
Throwing around labels like alcoholic is really easy. As humans, we have this need to find reasons. Why does Stu like to have drinks after work? Because he’s an alcoholic. That’s bullshit. Maybe Greg is trying to cover for his problem drinking. Just my two cents…
That’s were a social drinking culture like Ireland has comes into it’s own. Everyone is drunk so nobody really gives a fuck if somebody is acting the fool 
Good post BTW. It goes along with what I think. The label of alcoholic is thrown around and accepted far too easily nowadays.
As I said if you are always an idiot, violent, angry etc. while drunk you should really look at not drinking but it does not equal alcoholism by default.
That would cover it for me. All we are really talking about is actions and most substance abusers, given sufficient insight, discover that their behaviour is a cover for past or present problems. As you say self medication. Personally I doubt that the popular model of “addiction” or “alcoholism” has any life enhancing value at all.
If I drink half a bottle of spirits every night I’m drinking too much. If I have a bottle of vodka in the cupboard unopened for a month I’m not a “dry alcoholic”, I’m just not drinking.
My bet is Stu and Greg both have personal or emotional problems. It’s a pretty safe bet - nearly everyone has.
Lots of good stuff here.
I also think the term “alcoholic” is of limited value.
A couple of additional considerations that may not have been fully elaborated:
What percentage of your social activities involve alcohol? You may want to examine your drinking if nearly every social activity involves alcohol. Birthday parties, family gatherings, sporting events, lunch dates, brunches, etc. Hell, I used to bring a flask wherever I went, whether the ski slopes or the opera. Or if you find yourself drinking before social activities to “prime” yourself (whether you consider such behavior due to need or preference).
What is your alcohol intake compared with those you socialize with. People who like to drink tend to socialize with similarly minded folk. But at a bar or a party, people imbibe at various speeds and quantities. Do you pace yourself, interspersing drinks with NA and eating food before and during? Or when confronted with a keg or open bar is your initial thought to pull up a stool? And do you figure you haven’t drunk too much as long as you can identify someone else who has drunk as much or more than you, nevermind that you 2 have clearly outpaced the rest of the group?
How often do you drink out of habit, or to “reward” yourself, without considering first whether you really want that drink at that time? Do you have a beer or 6 every Friday after work? Do you eagerly await noon on Saturday to crack your first beer? Do you automatically have a drink after finishing a household chore? Do you get drunk on your birthday every year?
What are your alcohol purchasing habits? You may consider yourself fine buying a case of beer or more for personal consumption per week. But realize that a great many people do not visit liquor stores on a weekly basis. And most people do not feel a need to maintain adequate stocks of alcohol “just in case.” Or if they do have alcohol in the house, it doesn’t just “evaporate” such that it has to be frequently replenished. I’m not saying you have to reduce your drinking to whatever your community norm. But if everyone you hang with drinks heavily, you might not have a clear picture of how your habits compare with other segments of society.
My personal opinion is that a great many people who are heavy drinkers are able to moderate their drinking. But they have to want to do so and it requires considerable effort.
Moreover, there are plenty of people who many would term “functioning alcoholics.” Someone who holds down a job and supports a family, but drinks himself to sleep every night. Then beats down the hangover - maybe with the use of a little hair of the dog - to face work the next day. The more heavily someone drinks, the higher their tolerance. So long as they aren’t driving while drunk, IMO they are entitled to lead their lives however they wish. Such people, whether you call them problem drinkers, alcoholics, addicts, or anything else, are most likely unable to moderate, and abstinence is their only alternative.
By my definition, Stu is by no means a problem drinker. The most telling signs to me is that he can be in drinking situations and stick to soda, or be exposed to alcohol for prolonged periods and moderate his drinking. Unlike Greg’s nightly vino, Stu’s intake seems to be far more choice than habit. And I agree that Greg is a dick.
I think some people are alcoholics because of the routine involved. Three beers a day after work, enough to get buzzed and tell your kids how lazy they are, but not enough to feel hung over the next day. Repeat for 30 years.
This is what my dad did, (throw a couple of DUI’s in there over the years) then quit after he got pancreatitis and was told that he would live in pain if he continued to drink at all. In short, he had an alcoholic lifestyle without the constant mass consumption.
Has the same effect as being an alcoholic without the DT’s.
Then there are those like my uncle who become chemically dependent, need to detox, have the shakes and what not.
It’s more about what kind of alcoholic one is, and how bad.
I have nothing against drinking with friends as a social activity. (My last final finishes a 2pm…I plan to be nicely lit by 4:30, and that includes going home to change and shower) Its the attitude that without alcohol nothing and no one can be any fun that I get worried about. (and is highly common on my college campus). Hence the phrasing of my orgininal comment “If you need alcohol…” If your friends aren’t fun without chemical assistance, get new friends or you might have a problem with said chemical assistance. (Though if your friends aren’t fun when you are drunk…that could also be a problem…)
CnoteChris Nah, no history issues. my grandparents were raging alcoholics, I’m not going to follow in their footsteps, nor am I going to make stupid decisions drunk. If I know I’m going to be less than capable of making decisions, I’m going to make sure I’m in a situation where I don’t have to make them. Preventative measures.
Dinsdale, you’ve raised a lot of good points there. I would quote them, but I’d probably be here all night.
I think the words “Stu’s intake seems to be far more choice than habit” ring especially true. And yes - once again - Greg is a dick. Thank you!
AmericanMaid, your point about people throwing around the word “alcoholic” also struck a chord with me. That was one of my main points in my argument with Greg, as I really hate it when people use terms like that needlessly.
On a personal note, I like a few drinks. I probably drink alcohol five out of seven nights a week (those are usually in social situations) but I’m rarely an excessive drinker, and I know my limits.
It’s perfectly fine to discuss what constitutes alcoholism, and whether there are different types of alcoholics just as there are different types of drinkers, but just remember that there are many of us who simply cannot drink at all - not even one drink. I thought I had learned that the first time I got sober, but after a few years I decided I was “cured” and could now have a drink or two (or three, or four, or five… you see where I’m going) without getting into trouble.
And so began a hellish three-year relapse which was without a doubt the single most excruciating, torturous, and spiritually bankrupting experience of my 31 years. Every day that I wake up sober - no hangover, no shakes so severe they verge on convulsions, no dry heaves, no strange bruises on my body - I am grateful for this second chance.
I think the line between “enthusiastic drinker” and “probable alcoholic” is where you tell the first lie.
- PW
IMO, an alcoholic is someone who worries about alcohol not being available.
This covers the alco who gets sledged each evening as soon as he arrives home from work, the one who is constantly drunk, starting early in the morning and the sort who don’t drink often but when they do they binge to the point of almost causing liver failure.
To explain:
If I’m driving home and realise there’s no wine for dinner, or no beer in the fridge, I don’t worry about the situation. I shrug and continue home, thinking I’ll just drink water, juice, soft drink, etc. Same response to remembering I’d forgotten to buy rice for the chopped up stir-fry meat I’d defrosted for dinner. I don’t worry, I just shrug and plan on having fajitas for dinner instead.
My alcoholic father would worry about the situation and would turn around and drive a hundred km’s out of his way, spending money he couldn’t afford, to make sure he had his beer for the night.
If I’m going out for some fun with friends and for whatever reason I realise it’s going to be an alcohol-free night, I don’t worry about it and try to figure out a way to include alcohol in the evening.
An ex-friend of mine would do almost anything in his power to change the circumstances of the evening so that alcohol can be included, wouldn’t attend if he found out in time, or would go home early, presumably to secure some of that precious liquid he was so worried about.
If you are worried about the absence of alcohol, I reckon it’s a problem and you should think about how silly you’d look if you put “rice” or “socks” in place of the word alcohol in your thoughts.
Below the level of Alcoholic is a personal called a Problem Drinker. Pleasedtameetcha. I stopped drinking almost two years ago. I drank probably most every day, typically three 20oz microbrews at the brewpub, then four or five 12oz cans at home later, or at another bar. I drank often, and a lot. It was affecting my health a bit (liver chemical levels) and I was going to work hung over maybe once or twice a month. Waking up in the middle of the night to slam 16oz of water almost every night. I could have one beer and walk out of the bar if I had a reason to do so, and I could go two weeks with nothing to drink if I was on meds, but I didn’t like either one. My friends would say “If there is beer there, Bill will be there!”, and that bugged me. I decided to stop one evening, and did. I had a SERIOUS HABIT, not an ADDICTION.
I was also dating a woman who was an alcoholic 11 1/2 years sober, who is now my wife, and figured it would also be good for HER if I quit.
My father was a good man, he was not n alcoholic. He had a small constuction company, and took care of his family. He did not drink every day, usually only on weekends and seldom to excess. He sent me to college. When I started, he took me to a school out of state and paid all my fees with cash from his pocket. An alcoholic could not do that. I came home on the bus for Christmas but he took me back after New Year’s, just me and him. That was a Saturday, on Sunday a Florida Highway Patrolman came to my dorm room and woke me up. He asked me to go to the morgue with him to identify my father. He was headed south in north-bound lane and collided with someone.
The other driver lived and is in a wheel chair. All of my father’s assets except what the survivors needed to survive were auctioned off and awarded in a settlement. I had to drop out of school and get a job. That’s okay lots of people do that. Maybe Dad did have a drinking problem.
I drank. But I was not an alcoholic. I had a job and paid my way. I didn’t drink everyday, only on weekends and never in excess. I would never drive drunk. When I was 24, one Saturday I was drinking and decided to go somwhere. Hey, when you are drunk your judgement is impaired and you do stupid things. I ran into a carload of people at about 60 mph and totaled both vehicles, but no one was hurt. I lost my license and all four people in the car sued me. That was okay because every thing I owned was my truck (me and the bank), my furniture, and the clothes off my back. I lost my job because I couldn’t get there (no public transportantion) and moved in with my Grandmother because no one else would have me.
If you are asking strangers their definition of alcoholism, maybe you should consider your own definition. Do me a favor, set the bar low enough that you do not lose everything, maybe your life, to find out.
There is nothing more self-righteous…call me A REFORMED WHORE
when you want to quit but cant
If you think you might be, you probably are. If someone who knows you well thinks you might be, you probably are.
Regards,
Shodan
I hate to throw the word “alcoholic” around, though I’ve known a few people who certainly qualify.
Personally, though, I would hesitate to get involved with someone who needs liquor on any level, be it to cope or have fun.
BTW, SJSB, Stu sounds fine, from your description. Greg, however, sounds like someone with a problem who is projecting as a defense mechanism. IANA mental health professional, though, so that’s just a SWAG. Unfortunately, if my SWAG is on target, I’m not sure what the best method is to talk to Greg about it (if indeed that’s something you want to do). Maybe a real mental health professional could come along and mention something helpful.