How do you think PJ will ruin RotK? (spoilers)

Re: elves at Helms Deep

If PJ hadn’t shown the elves at Helm’s Deep, they would have come off like right bastards: “Oh, puny humans, good luck fighting off impending doom. We’re off to the Grey Havens. Toodle-oo.” I think it was a necessary change in order for the elves to seem sympathetic.

I’ve read the book; I like the book; but to your average reader/movie-goer, Jackson’s changes simply aren’t that drastic or horrifying. I’ve been extremely impressed at how he’s translated things to the screen.

I will miss The Scouring of the Shire. I liked the idea that you couldn’t just go away questing and expect your part of the world to remain unchanged. And the hobbbits saved the Shire, all by themselves.

The muster of the Rohirrim and the battle of Pellanor Fields have the potential to be amazing. I can’t wait so see them on screen.

And I may have misgivings about how some parts (especially the Grey Havens) will be handled, I am so excited about the movie, and I really, really think that it’s going to be great.

The movie will be ruined because Wolverine will be at the Pelenor Fields even though everyone knows the web shooters are not organic.

Can you tell I’m sick of the fanboy literalist rants?

Actually it was all done with looks. The Mouth glances at Aragon and they hold each other’s glance until the Mouth recoils as if attacked.

Shelob’s “Make 'Em Laugh” dance number is a crime against humanity. I can’t believe PJ actually put that in.

Not to knock your interpretation, but you’re flat-out wrong. It’s true that up until that point Sauron never thought the ring would be destroyed, but once he realised where it was, he was scared shitless. I quote the book:

And far away, as Frodo put on the Ring and claimed it for his own, even in Sammath Naur the very heart of his realm, the Power in Barad-dur was shaken, and the Tower trembled from its foundations to its proud and bitter crown. The Dark Lord was suddenly aware of him, and his Eye piercing all shadows looked across the plain to the door that he had made; and the magnitude of his own folly was revealed to him in a blinding flash, and all the devices of his enemies were at last laid bare. Then his wrath blazed in consuming flame, but his fear rose like a vast black smoke to choke him. For he knew his deadly peril and the thread upon which his doom now hung.

From all his policies and webs of fear and treachery, from all his stratagems and wars his mind shook free; and throughout his realm a tremor ran, his slaves quailed, and his armies halted, and his captains suddenly steerless, bereft of will, wavered and despaired. For they were forgotten. The whole mind and purpose of the Power that wielded them was now bent with overwhelming force upon the Mountain. At his summons, wheeling with a rending cry, in a last desperate race there flew, faster than the winds, the Nazgul, the Ringwraiths, and with a storm of wings they hurtled southwards to Mount Doom.*

That scene should be removed in the Directors Cut version.

It’s already in the trailer.

smiling bandit - I think for the purpose of the movie, it created a more dramatic effect to make Helm’s Deep a last stand for the Rohans like Masada instead of a rearguard or delaying action like the Alamo. Either way, I think most tacticians agree that without outside assistance, a battle involving a fortress under seige has an inevitable result.

Scene’s I fear:
Pretty much anything involving “bullet time” or “saving Private Ryan-cam” shots or pop-culture references (skateboarding, dwarf-tossing, calling people biatches or hizzos),

Oh and the use of any fighting style that makes use of props for jumping around or acrobatic work or pretty much anything other than hiding behind or bashing people over the head with.

I too am disappointed about the Scouring sequence being cut. I think it made a lot of important points, but I understand completely why it’s not making it into a 9 hour or so movie.

The only things I’m worried about (as a super humongous LOTR fan but not a “stodgy, narrow-minded Tolkienista”) are:
-The climax at Mount Doom. Please PJ, don’t change a thing. Please, Lord, let Elijah get it right. And show the missing finger.
-The Grey Havens. I know it can’t possibly be as moving as the book, but I hope they come close. And I hope the last shot is of Sam with Rose and Elanor, saying, well, you know.

Not as important, but I’m still concerned:
-Make people care enough about Faramir so that when his father almost burns him alive, Pippin seems heroic saving him.
-The demise of the witch-king really should follow the book. Period.
-Include at least some of the Faramir/Eowyn romance. I always liked that.
-Grima must kill Saruman, don’t you all think?
-Will Howard Shore will be able to come up with more great music to equal the 1st two films???

I’m looking forward to the movie. PJ et al have done a great job, but I’m glad I’ll always have the books. And I’ll be a little sad when the last extended DVD comes out, that the whole thing will be over.

The one thing I wanna see, the one thing Peter Jackson’s gotta do… the shot of Sam carrying Frodo up Mt. Doom. The movie might as well not exist to me if that scene’s not in.

Eh. Or Plan B: Have Gimli and Legolas wonder how things are going at home, and cut to scenes of war under the trees in Mirkwood, assaults on Lorien being turned back by the power of Galadriel, Dwarves and the Men of Dale up to their arses in Orcs before the Lonely Mountain.

All canonical - with possibly some minor error of timing, like there hasn’t been loads of that already - and it needn’t take but five minutes out of the film (and we all have our favourite votes as to the five most missable minutes) to illustrate very clearly that the Elves and Dwarves didn’t need to go looking for any dust-ups, and weren’t sitting on their overstuffed behinds while Rohan was going through the mincer.

So create two massive sets, fashion 4 armies worth of armor and costumes, all for 5 minutes of back story?

Right. Jackson should have spent millions of dollars to create at least three whole new sets, fill them with actors and/or special effects, and shoot and print and edit footage from all of them, then insert them into an already over-long film that’s already going to be picked apart for all the crap he had to cut out, thereby interupting the narrative flow and confusing the hell out of the 95% of the audience who aren’t hard-core Tolkien fanatics, all so you don’t have to see any elves in your precious Helm’s Deep. That’s an excellent solution to an all but non-exsistent problem!

Hmm you are not serious are you? you don’t actually think that massive battle the first five minutes of FOTR are actually people in costumes right? Huge armies fighting each other = entirely computer simulated and animated.

Sure, you can use things like MASSIVE for a lot of it, but any closeups will still take an actual actor. Not to mention any special effects or fighting sequences close up. And rendering time, while a lot cheaper than it used to be, is still expensive.

Why use closeups when the scenes that would be shown won’t have any characters known to the audience?

So grab the local janitor, put a $10 bill in his hand, slap on some makeup, have him pose with a bow and arrow, and there’s your elf establishing that it’s “elves” under attack.

“Close up”… feh! There were no closeups in 'Nam, I’ll tell you that!

I’m not so upset about the skipping of the scouring (say that three times fast) as much as I am about it’s not being possible in the movie universe. That is, Bombadil wasn’t in the movie (thank goodness IMO) but it isn’t impossible that they visited with him. However, in the extended edition, Sam didn’t get his box of soil. That upset me.

I continue to believe that the changes in tTT weren’t as significant as they appear at first. But I expect RotK to have fewer changes from the text than tTT.

You know, I’m pretty damn tired of being accused of being some stodgy, unimaginative, narrow-minded Tolkienista just because I think PJ has made some rather bad decisions with regards to what he’s done with this adaption. When scenes make me wince because of their crass stupidity, this is not being unimaginative or narrow-minded. Both movies to date have contained scenes that make me want to hide under the carpet, and I fully expect at least one in the upcoming picture as well.

Now, I might be accused of being a bit of a literalist if I bitched about something, like, say, the fact that the movie had Gandalf pushing to use the Redhorn Pass and Aragorn wanting to go through Moria, instead of vice versa like the book. Frankly, this did annoy me, because it was a change for no reason, and it made Gandalf look like a wimp. In fact, Aragorn foresaw peril for Gandalf in Moria, which is why he was opposed to it, and Gandalf took Aragorn’s warning seriously but thought Moria the better path anyways. But I digress. Minor pointless changes like this are but pinpricks.

The only scene that really pissed me off in the first movie was the telekinetic wizard fight. Where the hell did that come from, and would it have been possible to make the Wise look any more foolish? But I suppose the only reason this bothers me is because I’m stodgy and unimaginative. :rolleyes:

The second movie had much more that displeased me. No, not the much ballyhooed changing of Faramir, though I did find that extremely jarring. Some reflection convinced me that those changes weren’t a bad way of developing the character, though, as the means employed by the book to do this would not have worked on film. No, what bugged me a great deal was the complete rewriting of the whole plot thread involving Saruman’s invasion of Rohan, Theodred’s death, and Eomer’s actions generally. Some streamlining needed to be done, sure, but there was no need to make the story incoherent to the point of absurdity. Eomer, faithful nephew of the king, discredited by Saruman’s spy, Wormtongue, takes the bulk of the army and says, near the eaves of the Fangorn, “We ride north!” :boggle: Oh yes, that makes sense. When your homeland is in peril and your loyalty is in question, ride for the nearest border with great haste. Avoid swinging west to intercept nasty invading Uruk-Hai at all costs, and only return to save the King in the nick of time because some wizard comes to fetch you to battle from a week’s ride away in the space of 3 days. Sheesh. There was nothing wrong with the plot as it stood before this ridiculous writing - when we arrive in Rohan, a battle is already being fought at the Fords of the Isen where Saruman’s army is attempting to secure the key stragetic point of entry to Rohan from the northwest, with the Riders being led by Theodred, who falls in that battle. Theoden rides from Edoras with Eomer intending to reinforce this army (though word had already arrived of Theodred’s death, the Fords were not known to be lost when they departed), and only alters course to Helm’s Deep after meeting a rider fleeing the defeat at the Fords. When badly outnumbered, after all, it is prudent to seek a strong defensive position. Gandalf rides off and returns at the critical moment, not with Eomer and half of Rohan’s spears that had inexplicably abandoned their homes to the invaders, but with substantial elements of the force that had been defeated at the Fords, having gathered up the fleeing routed troops. It should also be noted that they were on foot, not mounted, and so weren’t pulling the tactical boner of charging a disciplined pike formation with cavalry.

Gads. Legolas can skate down the stairs, I don’t care. Elves can show up where they shouldn’t be, fine, though it’s annoying for reasons that non-readers don’t understand - it’s not just literalism, it’s that it’s out of the carefully developed character of elves to intervene in that particular manner at that particular time. But if you’re going to change something, you can at least avoid changing it in such a way that it makes no freaking sense.

But of course, my desire for the adaption to retain internal consistency, even if it’s internally consistent in ways differing from the book, is clearly the mark of a narrow-minded Tolkienista. It’s ridiculous to think that a movie adaption could be made without introducing elements that render the story incoherent, and I should just accept any and all ridiculousness in the plot because the movie looks pretty. :rolleyes:

No, it should stay as it was a great scene.

Truth hurts, huh?