I’m trying to understand your point. Are you saying that, from the customer’s point of view, it’s better for the price to be $12 with no tipping, than for it to be $10 plus a tip? Even though the size of the tip is controlled by the customer?
Noodles and Company, eh? I always avoided that place because I hated their unappetizing name (it sounds like they only serve dry, plain noodles), but now…
After you dragged it out of me, I used race as an example of discrimination that arises in the tipping situation, especially since it was the subject of the thread I linked in the OP; there’s also common prejudice against Christians, old people, foreigners, and young people. And I pointed out discrimination as only one of my gripes with tipping. I also complained about the patron being evaluated by his tips, which is exactly what threemae is talking about. I don’t know how you came to the conclusion, then, that my argument was soley about roving gay, racist waiters and their evil managers. As much as I love hyperbole, I didn’t clumsily employ it to mock your position.
For the very last time -
I’m saying that it doesn’t make a goddamned bit of difference what the menu price is. On average the customers with or without tipping pay their share of the total cost, except for those who stiff the server in the tipping case.
My contention has been and remains, tipping conceals the true cost from the consumer, and this sets a bad example. My God, think of the children!
It would be better in my view to have honest pricing.
I never said I would avoid waiting on blacks if it were up to me. I said that I would go after the money. And I would. If it were a choice between a black family and and elderly white couple I would take the family. They might tip a lower percentage but are likely to have a large enough bill to more than make up the difference. Or if it were a choice between a black family and an equal number of white employees of a large package delivery company that shall remain nameless then I would still go with the family because the other group has a nasty reputation for being very cheap, rude, in a hurry and still asking for seperate checks, and likely to demand a company discount our managers discontinued years ago after vociferous complaints from the waitstaff.
Do you get it? It’s about the money. Noticing cultural differences isn’t prejudice. It’s not like I’m saying that all blacks are cheap. That’s not true. But they are less likely to leave you a good tip than similarly situated white people. Do you understand that it’s not just white servers that believe this? I have discussed this with a black wait and she agreed.
I have to say that I never considered the effect of the custom of tipping upon readily identifiable groups that tend to tip less. I have never seen a server less polite to a table of African-Americans but now that I think about it I have no doubt that it happens. I’ve seen it with the elderly and teenagers and heard the server admit they were rude because they felt the table deserved it for low tip they were sure to leave. I wouldn’t expect a server to be as vocal about pulling this with blacks because of racial sensitivity. In fact the only conversation I had out loud about blacks being poor tippers was with the aforementioned black server. The white servers who talk about it invariably do so in a whisper even if no one else is around.
Yes, you have. Here on the message board if you click on someone’s username an option to view their public profile pops up. If you click mine you will note that my occupation is “Wait”. This is short way to say “waitperson”. That’s also a good place to check on someone’s gender. Unfortunately not everyone bothers to fill the profile out.
I didn’t comment on the fairness of the situation. My point was that it has nothing to do with whether employees are tipped or not.
My point was that just because you see waits moving quickly doesn’t mean that the place is understaffed. Servers are supposed to rush around during the rush. That’s why they call it “the rush”.
The problem is likely that you don’t understand the staffing situation. Note that the rushes typically last for 2 to 3 hours. Getting someone to come in to work just three hours rather than the typical five to six is a problem. If they want to cut my hours in half they have to double my average tip or I will go next door and work. Sure management has some strategies to alleviate this problem ( staggered shifts and split shifts ) but they can’t completely eliminate the extra time customers wait during the rushes without providing extra compensation for the servers.
What this means for you is that if you want to eat at the same time as everyone else but don’t want to wait along with them then you should expect to pay for the privilege. Find a nicer place where the prices are high enough to deter the crowd. The waits will be happy to give you more time in expectation of a higher tip.
So, was that a yes or a no? I’m not being deliberately obtuse here, I honestly don’t know.
Thanks, but I’m not interested in a lesson on how to navigate the message board. If information is germane to the thread, most of us will include that information in the thread. Some of us aren’t really into the whole ‘profile’ thing. You may have us confused with AOL chatrooms.
Well then I’m not sure why you responded to me, because I was talking about the relative merits of the tipping system, and one of my points was that it’s unfair. The simple factual matter of whether employees are tipped or not was not part of my point.
I never said “just because they move quickly”, it means the place is understaffed.
You seem to imagine that because you have worked as a server, you have some special insight. I really don’t think that’s the case. I am perfectly capable of observing when a person is overworked.
You are describing one of the difficulties in running a restaurant, but it really has nothing to do with the tipping vs. no-tipping debate. The difficulty would exist under either system. Tipping does not make rushes go away. It’s like saying “Tipping is good because the owner has to pay the electric bill.” It’s just irrelevant.
In addition, pointing out that “rushes” exist does not prove that restaurants are never under-staffed. Are you trying to say that it’s impossible for a restaurant to be under-staffed? Because that seems pretty absurd. If I am sitting in a restaurant, and nobody is taking my order, and I can see that the server has been put in charge of too many tables, and is obviously not loafing, then that place is understaffed.
And one more thing - part of running a successful business is being aware that, as far as the customer is concerned, your difficulties should not be an issue. A successful business finds ways to overcome the difficulties without fobbing it off on the customer. Customers don’t want to hear excuses why the line is too long, or the service is slow, or the food is cold, or what have you. They just want a satisfying experience. If the manager can’t find a way to effectively serve his customers during the “rush”, why should that be taken out on the server?
I have no idea where you got this strawman from. You have utterly and completely misconstrued my post. I never said anything about what time I like to eat, or what I expect from a restaurant. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about this. I suggest you go back and read what I actually said.
blowero said:
I don’t see that a case has been made that it is unfair to anyone. Certainly it’s not unfair to management. A customer, who has no obligation to tip at all, or who has the freedom to tip at any percentage they wish, can hardly to be said to treated unfairly. Who’s left? The server? I doubt you’d find many servers who feel that they’re being treated unfairly. Many of them make pretty good semi-taxed livings.
Who’s being treated unfairly, and how?
I’ll bet that is indeed true. If you haven’t worked in a business you will certainly lack a level of insight that a person who has does. And, adding to 2sense’s comments, there are times that a server may appear to be overworked. In many instances, that just the nature of that industry. (The “rush”) As a former manager, I can tell you that what appears to be understaffing to a customer (and even to an inexperienced manager!) is often poor planning and/or poor floor management.
Agreed.
They are indeed understaffed at times. Maybe that’s something that’s out of the manager’s immediate control. Maybe it’s a (poor) concious choice. Maybe they’re not understaffed at all. Maybe they’re fully staffed and poorly managed. In any event, a customer (especially a customer who has never worked in a restaurant) will often assume that understaffing is the source based on what they can see.
Waiting tables is a numbers game. There are good tippers and bad ones. Sometimes a server is overtipped based on services rendered. Other times they are undertiiped. Sometimes a customer takes out his wrath by undertipping a server. The average server sees that for what it is and looks at the tips at the end of the evening and figures whether it was a good night or a bad one.
But back to the point…If servers are not clamoring for change, and all things considered are content, why change? I mean, I would bet that the average waiter (especially in urban settings) would gladly take the occasional wrathful customer who stiffs them, or the occasional cheapskate, rather than taking $12/hr in a non-tipping environment. Do you know something we don’t know? Share it with us!
That’s not necessarily true. One of the biggest reasons that a server can get weeded is if the host(ess) dosen’t know what (s)he is doing. Being quad sat can throw anyone behind, but there may be a server across the resturant with his thumb up his ass. The resturant could be adequately staffed, but a mistake or a poor job by one of the non-wait staff can back everything up.
Yes, it’s better to pay $12 dollars with no tip expected than to $10 and a $2 tip, even though I can control the tip, I’ll say, at least, if David Simmons doesn’t. I like to know exactly what’s expected of me with no games played. I want to be a customer at a restaurant, not an employer.
Ok, I get it. You love tipping and will obtusely dismiss those who reveal its every obvious flaw. Customers, of course, do have an obligation to tip; a moral and a social obligation. We know that management doesn’t pay them because they expect us to. We know that being considered a cheapskate is a bad thing with social consequences. Just because we know that security won’t be called if we stiff doesn’t mean that there’s no obligation. And as stated before, servers are treated unfairly by getting unfair rewards, encountering good tippers and bad tippers regaurdless of their performance (I’m not sure if that’s where blowero was going, though). And I see you have a habit of filtering your observations of what your coworkers think and do to present tipping in a favorable light. I know that when I was a server, I and plenty of my coworkers felt that we were treated unfairly plenty of times.
And I’m glad that 2sense, unlike the willfully obtuse raindog, admitted the obvious possiblity that an industry wide distrust of black patrons can leak into performance, but I must ask,
Why would you ask me that? Did I make any implication that I was soley talking about white servers? I didn’t mention the race of the servers at all!
And more importantly, what does it have to do with anything?
Thanks, that’s a much better response. It’s to the point, and devoid of strawmen. Good job. I happen to disagree, however. I think I made a pretty good case that it’s unfair.
Well, that’s been covered already. A couple of us already mentioned that management is the one group that benefits from the status quo.
I’m not sure why you are running through a laundry list like this, because I already made it abundantly clear why the system is unfair, and to which group it is unfair. Did you happen to read what I wrote? Your response would seem to indicate that you didn’t.
That’s not really the point though, is it? We’re debating whether it would be better to continue paying low salaries + tips, or pay a higher salary + no tips. It would be just as possible for them to make a good living with a higher salary and no tips, so that’s not the issue.
And again, if you really read what I wrote, you’d know that I said I don’t think the tipping system is the end of the world, just that I personally think a no-tipping system would be better. Do you understand that when I say, “I think x system is better than y system”, it doesn’t necessarily mean that y system is horrible and that everyone is clamoring for x system? It just means that I think x is better, that’s all.
Please. This has been covered. I’m not going to rewrite my entire point. It was clear the first time.
On the other hand, I lack the bias and defensiveness of a person who’s worked in the business, so I am more able to see things objectively.
Assuming that’s true, my point still stands. Let’s say poor service is due to poor planning and/or floor management, and is the fault of the manager. With the tipping system, the customer would register his/her dissatisfaction by withholding the tip. The person who is responsible for the poor service, the manager, is not directly affected. But the server then makes less money because of a fault of the manager.
You see, the point is not what are the exact causes of staffing or management problems, even though you seem mired in that subject (probably because of your management experience). The point is that under the tipping system, in cases like this, the customer’s dissatisfaction gets registered with the wrong person.
I understand your point, but it’s not germane to the argument anyway. If the problem is out of the server’s control, then it’s not fair to take it out on the server.
Actually, that’s a reasonably good argument for a no-tipping system. If tips are fairly capricious, then there’s no point in having a tipping system.
Well, first of all, your figure of $12 is completely arbitrary. For the purposes of this debate, it would make sense to assume that the server is making the same living under each system. Quite obviously, you wouldn’t want to make less money, but I maintain that if given the choice between a higher salary + no tips vs. a lower salary + tips, and ASSUMING, OF COURSE that the end result salary-wise is the same, I’ll bet most people would take the higher salary + no tips.
I don’t see any reason for you to be snotty. Can’t we just have a debate?
And how does the system of tipping help rectify this situation?
pizzabrat said:
But it wouldn’t be $12—it would be substantially more than that. I’m amazed at just how inane this whole thread is! If tipping is this stressful, I can’t imagine what rush hour traffic must do to you. :smack:
I’m guessing that you’re younger than 30…Is this right? I mean, when you have a valid point you dress it up in so much hyperbole that it gets lost in the mix.
There is a subtle social pressure to tip. And we should ban tipping because some people either lack the social skills to handle the responsibility, or are just cheapskates, so that in either event we should provide legislation to protect their feelings?
C’mon suck it up! Tip the barber and your caddy for their excellent service. Stiff them when they suck, and have the backbone to tell them why. Along the way, don’t worry about the servers because they (IMO) don’t want the system to change. It’s a good job on the whole and I would bet the overwhelming amount of them don’t want to work for $12/hr. As to being treated unfairly, it’s all part of the job. There’s good tippers and bad ones and they’re not stressing about it. So, why are you?
**LOL. ** I may be obtuse, but not about this issue. I have the social skills to tip 20% for good service and higher for exemplary service. It’s not stressful, or difficult , and rarely takes me more than 10 seconds or so to figure. I’ve also never perceived stress on the part of the server. ( Oh my, come to think of it…I have seen both excitement and relief on their faces…OTOH, when I dined with my (black) wife there was something akin to confusion on their faces…perhaps a combination of doom, excitement and relief; and a hope that perhaps I would be paying the check?..It’s anybody’s guess…The good thing of course is that we only had to wait 5 minutes while they were in the kitchen arguing as to who would be stuck waiting on us…) But I digress…
In addition to superb social skills (except on message boards where I tend towards being self centered and obtuse…) I have the backbone to under tip for poor service and a willingness to rationally complain to management when the server’s sins are particularly egregious.
I’m also willing to stand up when someone claims to see a racial bogeyman around every corner, in this case the wait stations and commercial kithens of America. (You know…the liberal gay racists…)
While we’re at it…I have a problem with people who don’t wave when I let them in traffic. I also feel stress when I’m in line with a full cart of stuff and the guy behind me has a cart with only 6 or 7 items. I feel like I should let him get in front of me. But the person behind him only has 6 or 7 items too. Where does it end? If we just take our time with this we could solve many of society’s problems. I mean, we’re talking about one issue (Institutional Racism In American Restaurants) and perhaps (given that you seem to reject 2sense’s observations and mine) the social ineptitude among some groups as manifested by cheapskate tips.
Certainly some sort of legislation is the solution.
(I trust everyone sees this as intended----firmly tongue in cheek…)
Speaking as a former server and bartender, and a very good one, there is no way in hell I would do either job, period, unless I was working for tips. That’s not true. If you were going to pay me $25/hr I’d consider waiting tables, and the rate would be higher to tend bar, especially on weekends. You pay people $12/hr, you’re going to get people simply putting in time, punching the clock for a paycheck. AFAICT, the only people who don’t like the tipping system are some customers; further considering that my 10 year old son can easily figure out how much tips should be, I tend to discount the “WAH! It’s so hard to figure out what to tip!” arguement; my conclusion, as it always is when this issue comes up, is that some people are just cheep bastards who rightly feel guilty about wanting to stiff the waitperson and are looking for any reason at all to justify it. Either STFU and tip what you’re supposed to, or don’t tip at all and be proud of it, but stop trying to change a system that works to the advantage of everyone who isn’t a skinflint.
blowero said:
You’re welcome! But I don’t think you’ve made that case, and I’ve never seen any movement among service people to abolish the tipping arrangement. Do the math! I’m not kidding around. Ask a waiter in any decent restaurant. It is common to make $100 for a (6 hour or less) night and common in many good restaurants to make over $200 on a Friday night. (or more!) Ask one of them! A decent bartender can make over $100/night regularly. (and often more than that) In 1988 (That’s right 1988) I had female bartenders and waitresses who would make $300 on a busy night. (after tipping out and with all of their clothes on) You’re trying to save a group that, by and large, doesn’t want your help.
I am convinced that if put to a vote, the vast majority would not want to change and consider the occasional cheapskate to be part of life.
Yes that’s true. But one poster mentioned that under-reporting tips helps management which doesn’t help them. (and has the potential to hurt them) And, so I’m guessing that you wouldn’t know how it specifically helps them.
You made it clear that you feel it is unfair. I’d be interested in knowing what servers and those who receive the bulk of their income through tips feel. Show me where service professionals feel that tipping is unfair. (time to fire up Google…)
That’s not the original premise, but I’ll work with it. If the customers, management and even the servers don’t think it would be better, how in the world is it better? Certainly some customers would prefer it, but I don’t think the majority of them would. And, if the full ramifications of transferring those costs directly onto the menu were known I would guess that many more would be opposed to it as well.
Better in your estimation. And I appreciate your POV. But you haven’t made a case that the servers (the people who it is allegedly affecting unfairly) think it’s better. I don’t doubt that some customers would prefer it.
Maybe I’m a slow learner. mMybe you just haven’t made your case. Who knows?
Once again, the server isn’t asking for your help. If that problem continues, the server quits, and ultimately the restaurant closes. But if you ask the average server if they want to go to a straight salary and avoid the situation you describe (which happens to be sure) the answer will still be “no”.
Once again, the average server and restaurant recognize this as a natural part of the business. The alternative is even less attractive for all involved. In this case your cure is worse than the disease!
The servers OK with it. When the food is fantastic they get the credit as manifested by a good tip. They’re quite willing to take blame for something that’s not their fault as well as the credit that they didn’t earn. It’s all in a night’s work.
I’m not sure they’re entirely capricious. There is still a correlation between good food/service and and good tips.
Maybe…But do you know what a decent server is capable of making? The overwheliming amount of restaurants could not afford to replace the potential to make $60, $80 or $150 nightly in tip income with direct wages. I’m glad you put ASSUMING in caps.
I didn’t mean to be snotty and I aplogize if I offended you. I was looking for more information to support that your opinion is held by the majority of servers whose incomes would be affected by your proposal.
I don’t think the exact dollar amount is the point. The point is that it’s more convenient to just pay the amount on the check and be done with it. It’s not impossible to do it that way. As I mentioned, they do it that way in Japan, and when I lived there, I found it to work quite well. It was much more convenient not to have to deal with the hassle of tipping, and the restaurant industry there has not come crashing down.
I can’t speak for pizzabrat, but for me, saying it would be more convenient not to tip is in no way equivalent to saying tipping is inordinately stressful.
Imagine you go to the corner market to buy a soda, and instead of handing you the change, the clerk walks to the other end of the store and places it on a counter. You say to the clerk, “It would be better if you just handed me the change .” So the clerk says, “Geez, is it that stressful for you to walk 10 feet?” 
The point isn’t how stressful it is; the point is which way would be better.
I admit I haven’t followed the whole exchange between you guys so far, but in the part you quoted, where exactly is this hyperbole that you feel obfuscates the point? Because I actually followed his point quite well.
I disagree. There is actually a pretty strong social pressure to tip. It might be considered acceptable to withhold a tip if the service was very poor, but otherwise it is expected.
Ad hominem. Even though logical and compelling reasons have been presented as to why a no-tipping system would be better, you simply dismiss it all by saying, “If you disagree with me, you don’t have a backbone.” Very poor debating form.
:smack: Weirddave, you are obviously misguided and in need of being rescued from a system that is inherently unfair to you.
I usually just relax while the driver figures out what to do.
Duh.
Who are you describing? I’m talking about one thing, not every corner, and you and everyone else already admitted that most waiters don’t want to wait on blacks, so this isn’t something that I conjured out of the air. Look, I’m obviously going to think that it’s a big deal that I’ll automatically disappoint a restaurant’s staff just by arriving to it, and you won’t. Why don’t you just admit you don’t really care because it doesn’t happen to you instead of acting like I’m being illogical for being disturbed about that?
Yes, that’s why the $12/hr figure was suggest by a pro-tipper as a strawman. In my OP I said a marketable rate. Certainly there’s some price an employer could offer his waitstaff that would keep them on board, especially since there are good waiters in countries that don’t tip.
This is simply not true. There are countries out there with no custom of tipping. Wait staff get paid a living wage and provide good service. I have no dog in this fight, but I can’t let this be said over and over when it is just not true. Some of the best service I’ve ever had happened in a country with no tipping. Some people just like to do a good job. Saying that servers only provide good service to get good tips seems to be to be short-changing the morals of servers.
The organizers of Burning Man called, thay feel this strawman is big enough for them to use at their festival this year and would like to know if they could please have it.
“Bullfighter” is a lucrative job in Spain, too, are you going to suggest that someone here should go into the field? Different countries have different customs and cultures, I am talking about the Yoo Ess of Ayyy here. I can get a job paying $12/hr or more requiring me to sit on my butt, would you care to tell me why I should knock myself out like a good waiter has to for the same compensation?