How feasible would it be to outlaw tipping?

[Polerius]

@bashere

I am attempting to give a reason that a $10 tab would become more than a $12 tab if the server were paid a salary commensurate with the take they currently experience.

Not sure if this was mentioned previously in this thread, but as I recall, for parties of 6 or more, the tip is automatically added to the bill. Somehow, this does not cause the system to collapse, or cause waiters to be rude or inconsiderate to parties of 6 or more (from my experience), since their tip is guaranteed.

So, why not just automatically add the tip for all parties, not just 6 or more?

If this works, why not just add the automatic tip into the price listed on the menu?

This is actually not the same as giving the waiters a higher salary. It’s just saying that waiters get x% of the total sales of the restaurant. Which is exactly what happens now (assuming most people stick to a fixed tip amount no matter the quality of service, which previous posters mentioned is the case). The only difference is that the menu now lists a price that is erroneous, since it does not correspond to the amount of money that has to come out of my pocket.

The whole tipping thing is similar to other cases where the actual price is not listed. For example, sales tax is not listed. Or when ordering via mail-order, shipping and handling is not included in the price listed.

My philosophy is, I don’t care how much you (the company) have to pay to the city/state in terms of a sales tax, I don’t care how much you have to pay to ship me the item I ordered, I don’t care how much you pay your waiters.

All I want to know is how much money is coming out of my pocket for a particular item.

How you distribute that among the state, your chef, waiters, cleaning lady, lawyers, USPS, etc is utterly unimportant to me.

In many stores in Europe, you see an item for 40 Euros, and you go pay for it and - lo and behold! - you actually have to pay 40 Euros, not 43 Euros or 45 Euros. 40 Euros exactly. Simplicity. I love it.

[raindog]

Duckster said:

As pointed out by Jane D’oh!, this system favors the employer. I’m betting most tipped employees don’t know the law and are not paid the $5.15/hour (total) as required by law. Even so, unless there is some sort of employee representation to protect themselves (a union?), if you make a stink about not being paid what the law requires, you will shortly be out of a job. I seriously doubt the vast majority have the resources to fight such a dismissal.

With all due respect, this system favors both the employer and the employee. The insinuation that servers are in fear of speaking up about their wages lest they lose their jobs is plain silly. It is a federal law that posters are prominently displayed in every business, inclusing restaurants, that outline their rights under the law. In the years I worked in that business I was fullt aware of the law, and my rights, and I’m sure that servers are well aware of the laws that pertain to them.

I have been out of the restaurant business for some time, but back then restaurants were specifically exempted from paying the full minumum wage because tips were the primary source of income, and that once tips were figured in most servers make well more than the federal minumum wage.

To quote you, lets’s be clear here: Here’s what you quoted. Re-read it.:

The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) sets a federal minimum wage of $5.15 per hour for covered, nonexempt employees. An employer of a tipped employee is only required to pay $2.13 an hour in direct wages if that amount plus the tips received equals at least the federal minimum wage, the employee retains all tips and the employee customarily and regularly receives more than $30 a month in tips. If an employee’s tips combined with the employer’s direct wages of at least $2.13 an hour do not equal the federal minimum hourly wage, the employer must make up the difference

The fact is that most servers make much more than the federal minimum wage. The law you quoted is clear on that, and a poster to this effect is hanging in the break room iof almost ecery restaurant in America. So, contrary to your assertion, A) Employers are NOT required to pay the $5.15 wage, and; the overwhelming amount of all servers make much more than $5.15 with tips included.

Most servers are quite content with this arrangement as the money is generally very good, and in many restaurants very, very good. For the skills required, a job waiting tables pays much more than a commensurate job working in a retail store, or even other jobs that are equally strenuous.

There is little or no hue and cry from servers in the restaurant business because most of them have it pretty good. (fast food being a notable exception) With additional scrutiny from the government towards employers likely comes scrutiny towards the servers and the way that they report & pay taxes from tips.

Your argument holds even less water than blowero’s.

[raindog]

Polerius said:

Not sure if this was mentioned previously in this thread, but as I recall, for parties of 6 or more, the tip is automatically added to the bill. Somehow, this does not cause the system to collapse, or cause waiters to be rude or inconsiderate to parties of 6 or more (from my experience), since their tip is guaranteed.

So, why not just automatically add the tip for all parties, not just 6 or more?

If this works, why not just add the automatic tip into the price listed on the menu?

Good question, and maybe it would work if it were simply the tip, and not a wage. If it were a wage, than a host of other taxes come into play and now that standard 18% tip for parties of 6 or more becomes significantly higher, by necessity, than 18%.

This is actually not the same as giving the waiters a higher salary. It’s just saying that waiters get x% of the total sales of the restaurant. Which is exactly what happens now (assuming most people stick to a fixed tip amount no matter the quality of service, which previous posters mentioned is the case). The only difference is that the menu now lists a price that is erroneous, since it does not correspond to the amount of money that has to come out of my pocket.

Once again, good idea, and simplifies the dining experience,. Here’s some complaints you’ll get: Patrons who resent being told what to tip, partly because they want the flexibility to tip higher, or lower, based on the quality of the **total **dining experience. To be sure, many customers though would like it though. (What percentage is unknown)

The servers would be absloutely against it. The amount of their tips would then be specified and known. It would be reportable via a 1099 as any self employed person and it would make under-reprting of tips all but impossible. Under-reporting a tips is pandemic and treated as a birthright, although it is never discussed, even in the restaurants among waiters. It’s a BIG tax “benefit” that would go away.

The whole tipping thing is similar to other cases where the actual price is not listed. For example, sales tax is not listed. Or when ordering via mail-order, shipping and handling is not included in the price listed.

I have to disagree with this. This is not anywhere as big a deal as this thread has played it out to be. You pretty much know how much you’re going to spend when you go to Bennigan’s or Friday’s. If you order lots of appetizers or drinks, or desserts your bill will be significantly higher. But you know this and you order from the menu with this knowledge. The restaurant business calls this the “average check.” You are in control as to what you order/spend. If you’re socially astute you’ll tip 20% more for good service. But when you got in the car you didn’t know exactly what you’d spend, but based on your knowkledge and past experience you can kind of know what you’ll spend within a given range. What’s so complicated? The fact is, that there are many services that you can engage where the full cost can’t be known up front. That includes some professional services like accountant, doctors or lawyers. It also includes contractors and other service providers. This thread has made it look like going to restaurants is particularly stressful, or has all of these “hidden costs.” That’s just plain silly. If the % varied restaurant to restaurant, or state to state, or from one dining concept to another, i could see the point. But if you go to a fast food type sit down restaurant, middle of the road restaurant or fine dining it’s still going to be around 20% for each experience. Why make this so complicated?

My philosophy is, I don’t care how much you (the company) have to pay to the city/state in terms of a sales tax, I don’t care how much you have to pay to ship me the item I ordered, I don’t care how much you pay your waiters.

All I want to know is how much money is coming out of my pocket for a particular item.

You would care if the cost of your beer went up $2.00, and the cost of dining went up significantly. (“You” being the average diner) You presented an interesting idea. But if those “tips” become “taxable wages” you’re in for some serious sticker shock.

[qcomdrj]

Ok, the fact that many of the servers point out the rampant nature of underreported tips makes me want to get rid of this system even more. Not only is it a giant pain the ass if you have more than 2 checks, but it is breaking the law much of the time. Why should servers get to do that and nobody else. Granted, we all know car mechanics that can take cash payments and then never report those to the IRS, but not all of them do it. In fact, I have met a few that won’t, and that is also a pain. The important thing for that is that cash always makes it cost less.

[raindog]

@qcomdrj

Ok, the fact that many of the servers point out the rampant nature of underreported tips makes me want to get rid of this system even more. Not only is it a giant pain the ass if you have more than 2 checks, but it is breaking the law much of the time. Why should servers get to do that and nobody else. Granted, we all know car mechanics that can take cash payments and then never report those to the IRS, but not all of them do it. In fact, I have met a few that won’t, and that is also a pain. The important thing for that is that cash always makes it cost less.

Good point. As I’m sure you know, the US Treasury is cheated out of Billions every single year by tax cheats. I’m not saying servers are the worst, but that simply any profession that earns it’s keep largely by cash payments is a fertile area to cheat.

[blowero]

@bashere

I make a passing mention of that in my post, when I point out that you are correct, other countries do so. My point isn’t that this is the only way it can be done, but only that increasing pre-adding the tip to the bill (putting servers on commission, effectively) will increase the amount of teh bill by more than the tip would. This may be completely acceptable, but I am attempting to give a reason that a $10 tab would become more than a $12 tab if the server were paid a salary commensurate with the take they currently experience.

First of all, I already acknowledged your point. Second, I never used those figures, of course, and IIRC, the person who used the $10 and $12 examples only did so as a hypothetical. Unless I’m mistaken, I don’t think anyone said as a certainty that they thought those would be the actual figures. And if they did, I of course don’t share that view.

From your earlier post:

How does this relate to tipping? Tipping moves the risk of people not being there from the owner (who has already put up considerable money) to the server. By paying minimum wage and having the wait staff work effectively on commission, the owner cuts costs and transfers the risk of a dead bar to the server. Obviously, anyone familiar with economics (and it has been my experience that wait staff understand economics at a visceral level) would realize that the person assuming more risks does so believing the potential for reward not experienced if the risk hadn’t been assumed.

I understand your point, but I don’t know that I agree with your belief that it’s intrinsically better to transfer the risks of business ownership to the employees. In my book, the person who starts a business ought to be the one to take the risks associated with running a business, not fob it off on his employees. This is a routine part of running a business. Bookstore employees don’t receive tips, and there are times when bookstores are virtually empty, yet the owners must staff the store. There’s no trick to get out of it - it’s just a part of running a business. Grocery stores have rushes in the late afternoon, yet the owners manage to staff cashiers without a tipping system. There is nothing intrinsic to restaurants that makes the same impossible.

While I certainly appreciate your references to the “fine job servers do”, you made a comment that if they were making more than some amount, frankly, they are over paid. I am curious what criteria you used to determine the correct level of pay for a server.

I didn’t. I merely reiterated that one of the extreme examples used in this thread was only an amount for certain nights, and that servers don’t make that amount every night. Certainly there exists some wild-ass exaggeration where you would concede that if servers made that much, they would be overpaid, isn’t there? For example, if servers made 2 million dollars a year, would you concede that they were overpaid, without feeling the need to explain your “criteria”?

I also appreciate the fine job my auto mechanic does, and the fine job my postman does, and the fine job schoolteachers do. If you believe that servers ought to make, say, twice as much as these people, I’d be interested in your reasoning. Not that I don’t think people should go for as much money they can get, and not that I would disapprove of servers getting $78,000/year if they could - I was just pointing out that that doesn’t seem like an accurate figure, and even if it were, I don’t see why we MUST have a tipping system in place to guarantee such a salary.