What separates sexiness from beauty? I personally ‘know’ what you mean, I just don’t know how to describe it. I can think of women who are beautiful who I’m not attracted to, I can think of mildly cute women I find sexy as hell.
Also I’m sure there are many factors. There are beauty vs sexiness. But there are also whatever personal tastes the guy has, the quality of the woman’s personality, etc.
I don’t think this is something that can be pinned on one gender vs another. It’s a cultural, societal issue. Since both genders contribute to culture, both contribute to body image issues.
I think body image issues largely stem from the way we idealize femininity. If you believe you meet this ideal, then it is unlikely you’ll have body issues. If you don’t feel this way and you assign a lot of emotional value to this ideal (which a lot of people do, in our competitive culture), then body issues erupt.
For what its worth, the same phenomenon occurs in men. Except it typically less about body issues and more about status insecurity. One could ask: is it women’s fault that men have status issues? Or is it men doing it to themselves? And that question is just as simple-minded as the question about female body issues.
I agree with this at the macro level.
I disagree with this statement. Every single woman I’ve ever met, even the ones I thought were naturally beautiful, have some detail about their bodies that they hate. Whether it’s the shape of their nose, slightly flabby upper arms, ugly toes, all kinds of things. Women totally compare themselves to some ideal and find SOMETHING to fixate on as being imperfect. I’ve also never met a single thin woman who didn’t utter the words “ugh, I feel so fat!” I guess, in short what I’m saying is that there isn’t a female alive who believes she meets the ideal and has no body issues. If there is one that happens to read this, please stand up.
I agree with the part that for men it’s more about status. It’s not women’s fault in total that this happens, but anecdotally there are specific women who contribute to it. Years ago when I was on match.com I got curious who “my competition” was so I did a few searches for women. I was completely blown away to find quite a few female profiles where that stated they were looking for men who had high salaries or high prestige jobs. Invariably those women listed their own salaries as very low (less than $25k/year) or as undisclosed. They were outnumbered by “normal” women like me who wanted men with good personalities, responsible, funny, etc. but I was shocked to find as many as I did. I never realized that gold diggers were a real thing outside of hollywood movie sets.
I’ve checked out “my competition” too. Very few overt “no fat chicks,” but plenty of code: “I appreciate a woman who takes care of herself,” “seeking fit and active” etc.
I think the majority of men would find fashion industry women too skinny, but “too skinny” is not really seen as a big problem like “too fat”. Look at Angelina Jolie, there is just NO way the majority of men look at those legs and think they are their ideal of hotness. We’ll still find HER incredibly attractive though, but it is in spite of the unhealthy level of thinness. People just see a skinny hot woman and think “get a couple sandwhiches in her and she’s perfect” while a fat one is simply dismissed.
I think it is normal for most people to find some fault at themselves, and not consider themselves perfect. Similar with men, as was mentioned before, even some whose status is OK and good may still feel insecure about their status, even if for many women, they’re perfectly OK.
Also, I want to point out, that for some women (and perhaps some men), finding a fault in themselves does not invalidate that they consider themselves pretty or in a good position. And I think the implication that just because I said “I’m fat” = “I think I’m ugly” may say more about the other person than about me. Because nowhere did I say I was ugly.
Finally, while yes, I think the society at large is at problem instead of individual men, and both men and women are part of society, I still would think that in general, men would have more to do with the body image issues. Like WhyNot mentioned, a lot of our mores are set overwhelmingly by men, with fewer women, and they can be norms and rules that affect some men more instead of women, and some women who benefit from the current beauty ideals. Doesn’t make it fair or good.
I don’t know about that… it’s hard to argue that Ashley Graham isn’t attractive or sexy, and she’s a bigger woman.
It’s true that the beauty curve skews skinny, but that’s totally a cultural thing. A lot of latter-day teenage assholes (and older men stuck in that pattern of thinking) would probably say Marilyn Monroe, Sophia Loren and Raquel Welch in their primes were all “fat”, and we know how absurd that is.
Another, IMO more insidious thing that messes up women’s self-perceptions is that most, if not all commercial photography of celebrities and models is photoshopped to hell and gone, and even without that, are very meticulously made up and posed to show them off to their best advantage.
I mean, they pose Ariana Grande on magazine covers and what-not like she’s this sexpot, and then when you see her on the Tonight Show, she’s this tiny little skinny girl. Similarly, there’s some kind of cosmetics or hair product commercial out starring Sofia Vergara. Even acknowledging that the woman made a pact with Satan for her 40-something looks, her skin isn’t THAT flawless, and her figure’s probably not THAT awesome in person.
Or for men, you see guys like Channing Tatum and Joe Mangianello put up as paragons of male beauty. It’s pretty much a second job to keep up abs like those guys have; lots of exercise and a very, very restrictive diet. It’s not realistic for a long term thing- I’m sure they slim down and cut-up for photo shoots and filming, and roll around the rest of the time without six-pack abs. I saw a Reddit AMA with Channing Tatum, and a big piece of it was him bitching about all the dieting he had to do to get the 6-pack.
But if you’re an otherwise good looking man or woman, and you look at those people, you’ll find something to fixate on as being imperfect and unattractive, even though in reality, they’re not that perfect either.
This is so true.
If you waved a magic wand and suddenly society’s ideal women was thirty pounds heavier, I don’t think body image issues would go down at all. The only difference would be the now too skinny women would hate that about themselves and the now perfect weight women would have themselves because of poor skin or short legs or something else. No one is perfect and so everyone has the opportunity to hate themselves because of a physical flaw.
An appropriate self esteem does not come from matching society’s version of perfect but valuing other things about yourself and accepting physical flaws instead of obsessing over them.
The whole “Society is making my feel bad about myself” is a way to externalize and blame others for your own mental health issues.
This doesn’t contradict what I said, though. If a woman feels she conforms to the ideal, then it is unlikely she will have body issues. All you’re saying is that you know of no woman who perceives herself as the ideal. And I agree it’s rare to find such a person. My overarching point is that feeling less-than-ideal often translates to body issues, because of how the ideal is so prized in our society.
My own hypothesis is that the closer someone is to being the ideal, the more critical they are of their bodies. Perhaps because self-acceptance is easier when you know there is no chance in hell you will meet the standard of ultimate beauty.
Definitely. Women contribute to it. In many ways, its more obvious when women contribute to male insecurity, because of how it presents in romantic relationships (and shows up in dating profile). But it’s not like men judge each other using a completely different yardstick. Low-achieving beta males are looked down upon; high-power alphas are celebrated. Leading men in movies (produced and directed by men) aren’t typically weak and untalented. They are often rich, strong, handsome, and supernaturally talented. So it’s no wonder that so many men will compare themselves with others and find themselves lacking.
Okay, I see what you’re saying and I agree.
Speaking for myself I honestly don’t know if I am okay with my appearance although I am far, far from the ideal. I do have body image distortion, but in the opposite way from most people. Most women think they’re fatter than they are; I believe I’m thinner than I actually am. I’m always shocked at my reflection in windows and in photographs.
To be fair to myself, though, I do pat myself on the back for the few details that I think are really lovely. For example, the color of my hair has always been nice: naturally wheat blonde with sun streaks, and now that I’m approaching mid-fifties, it’s shooting silver streaks through the gold. And I love my broad shoulders. But the rest? Meh. 
We shouldn’t overlook that we are social animals, though. Much like sheep, bees, monkeys, and other social animals, our actions, our beliefs, and our sense of self is largely shaped by what others think. Our makeup predisposes us to conformity. A lack of conformity makes us anxious.
Why are some people more susceptible to this pressure than others? I don’t know. I consider myself on the more indifferent end of the spectrum, but even I have my insecurities. Recognizing where this comes from actually helps me put things in perspective.
Body issues are simply part of the human condition. That doesn’t mean its incurable problem. But it may mean that its an artifact of how we’re wired. To overcome this problem, we have to counteract this wiring. We could make nonconformity a less stigmatized thing. Cast more “ugly” women as the love interest. Or better yet, put women in more roles that doesn’t reduce them to love interests.
I wanted to get the book Bodies and Souls but the library doesn’t carry it. Are there others along the same genre?
For me one thing I’ve wondered about women is how do they react to the power of being a woman and a sexual creature? Once you hit puberty after age 13 or 14 or so, all of a sudden you have to realize you have the ability to manipulate men who are your fathers age or older (40+). I assume that has to be a mindfuck on a teenager, knowing they have that kind of power.
It is a mindfuck, but power? As a minor, noticing that men, my dad’s age or older, are interested in me mostly in a sexual way is in no way power. It was freaking creepy and uncomfortable. These are also men who hold/held power over me, even if I was younger, even if I had been a boy. I had no power over them, they had power over me. I still don’t, in many cases.
Possibly some would. But I wonder: has that ever been said by a heterosexual male?
This borders on delusional. Having men your father’s age leer at you isn’t any sort of power it’s when you suddenly realize that all that talk about rape etc that you heard about for years suddenly could apply to you because you’re now noticeable in a way that you weren’t before, and if a guy who is old enough to have decorum doesn’t, what does that say about how dangerous he might be. Probably he’s harmless, but how do you know? Remember, you don’t have any experience judging this sort of thing so you have no way of assessing the risk the random leering old guy poses. All you can do is hope he only looks.
I have a hard time pinning the blame for women’s body issues on men. I think it’s more culture-wide and so the blame is shared.
Looking at issues of fashion and women’s magazines: regardless of how many men are involved in the industry, women choose what to buy. If Cosmo could double its sales by putting frumpy housewives on the cover, no amount of macho chauvinism would prevent them from doing it. The bottom line is that women “vote” for what they want every time they buy something.
And let’s look at half of what’s sold inside Cosmo. When is the last time a guy even noticed your new hand bag? Or your updated hair style? Aren’t we more likely to be standing there when you get home from the salon stupidly saying “You look great, honey. Your… uh… is nice. They really… changed… you know… all that.” Seriously, only your girlfriends will notice and you know it.
I guess I’m misinterpreting things then. As a teenage boy I had nothing grown women were interested in and as a result had no leverage. I know some teenage girls use their leverage against older men, but they are the exception.
Anecdote /= data, but for what it’s worth, I’ve never met a man who didn’t hate something about his body. Where do you think the Hair Club for Men and “male enhancement” spam come from?
Very much so. A man’s salary is like a woman’s cup size: the bigger it is, the more attention it garners. Mythbusters took a look at this: Does Money Make Men More Attractive? and Do Larger Breasts Equal Bigger Tips?
Rarely if ever. That’s why average adult, heterosexual men have the “WTF are you talking about?” reaction to being cornered and blamed for female body image issues. Having said this there is a strong contemporary cultural ideal of being slim/muscular, toned and defined for both men and women vs the more softbodied look of the 60’s and 70’s and even into the early 80’s. Basically an athletic build. It would be interesting to untangle what happened in those last 30-50 years that brought us from point A to point B in physical ideals. Now that we are fatter than ever as a society our physical ideals are at ever greater distances from our cultural reality.
This young female writer for VICE is good example of a 70’s style softbody. She is super cute and sexy with her big mop of hair and bad diet but she wants to be a warrior.
