How much neuro damage from ecstasy / X / MDMA ?

Factual Questions
1

Dunno if the mods are going to kill this one or not. I’m not asking, “How can I buy/use MDMA”, I’m just trying to get some opinions (hopefully educated, or at least directly experienced) on what MDMA does to your brain.

There seems to be a lot of, ah, “bovine adult male fecal matter” on this topic. I searched the SDMB for this subject and was surprised to find only a pit thread that only mentioned it more or less in passing. I’m surprised it hasn’t been covered before. It seems like an big well of ignorance just begging to be eradicated.

So, how much damage does MDMA do to you? I think I understand the current theory of how and why the damage occurs - see http://www.dancesafe.org/slideshow/ for the clearest explanation I’ve found. Everyone seems to agree
that there’s obviously potential for some damage, especially in high doses. But how much damage does, say, a single dose do? What are the real risks and probabilities here?

Qadgop? DoctorJ? Anyone?
-Ben

2

er… I’ve taken hundreds of pills without any apparent effects. There is no real way to quantify the damage X does to your brain. The dosages used in studies that have found a neurotoxic reaction have been pretty high; 7mg/kg every 2 hours, or something similar. Whether MDMA is a human neurotoxin or not remains controversial. I have not noticed any of the supposedly concomitant effects after (ab)using MDMA nearly every week for months now. My speech is not impaired and my memory has improved. This is obviously a subjective conclusion, though I think it accurate.

A single normal dose of X is not enough to damage your brain. Your brain’s store of serotonin will no doubt be depleted for a day or two, but you will be back to normal within a week. Of course, I have never known anyone to do X and walk away without some serious psychological impact. Be careful, the drug can show you things about yourself you may have been better off not knowing. It will thrust you into a state of absolute happiness. It’s really impossible to describe to anyone who has not done it, but I have always likened it to a constant full body orgrasm combined with this sense of rightness, sort of like Christmas morning as a little kid.
from http://www.ecstasy.org/info/novartisabs.html:

That page is slightly outdated, in the last two years a number of studies have been published that are hardly reassuring to the recreational X user. I’m not sure where these can be found on the internet; perhaps someone else can enlighten us.

Incidentally, there are a few MDMA analogues that have no neurotoxic effects. Unfortunately they seem to be much harder to manufacture than MDMA and it’s illegal to even attempt it.

I can’t wait to destroy more of my brain this weekend :smiley:

3

[Moderator Hat ON]

As this is a question which can have a factual answer (a doctor listing the effects of X, for instance), I think this is better suited to General Questions. Don’t make it into a debate on the morality of drug use or a listing of local suppliers of illegal drugs or you’ll piss off the GQ mods. :wink:

[Moderator Hat OFF]

4

Thank you, Doctor. Case closed.

5

I just received an email this morning about a recent study that showed Ecstacy can possibly cause longterm changes in the brain. I deleted it and can’t find the source. I realize this doesn’t help, but I had to post it anyway. If I find it later, I’ll post it. - Jill

6

I didn’t realize re-stating a known fact required a degree in medicine.

7

We just watched a video on X in my psychology class (from 20-20 i believe). They had this one female on that used every weekend for 2 years (age 18-20) When she finally decided to get help they showed a brain scan that they did on her. She had the brain of an 80 year old. Her cortex looked like swiss cheese, very bad, very permanant. It sure scared the hell out of me. Not saying that this happens to everyone, but looking at risk vs reward i’d pass.

8

Did some looking and found some actual sites to back up my info.

Apparently X leads to a widespread decrease in cognitive function, and (at least in animals) can last 7+ years.

Here’s a good site

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/concern/mdma/ecstasy020700.htm

9

There is wide variation in people’s responses to recreational drugs. It’s not accurate to say that any of them are harmless for everyone, because there are definitely horror stories out there. It’s also true that some people take all kinds of drugs with no apparent ill-effects. Most generalizations are not helpful on an individual level.

We do ask that no one encourage anyone on our Message Board to use illicit drugs. - Jill

10

That’s from 48 hours. MDMA use does NOT lead to holes in the brain, this has been refuted.

http://www.dancesafe.org/48hours.html

11

This study is biased and the ‘decrease in cognitive function’ can only casually be attributed to MDMA.

For a bit more insight:

http://www.erowid.org/mdma/references/mdma_research_summaries.shtml

The topic of MDMA is loaded with fear inducing propaganda. As the OP noted, there is a lot of bullshit floating around. It’s very sad that most of what people know about X seem to be a lie. Let’s seperate fact from fiction so that some progress can be made, please!

12

nickc
Of course, I have never known anyone to do X and walk away without some serious psychological impact. Be careful, the drug can show you things about yourself you may have been better off not knowing.

I think I’ve heard this caution before. What gives? Is this like how they tried to use LSD to show alcoholics the reality of their habit or something?

This study (http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/concern/mdma/ecstasy020700.htm) is biased and the ‘decrease in cognitive function’ can only casually be attributed to MDMA.

So, I read the page, and the key word seemed to be in the first sentence “chronic use of MDMA.” In other words, people who use it a lot, repeatedly, and presumably over a fairly long period of time.

But anyway, when you say the study is biased, how do you mean? I’m just curious what they did wrong. I mean, obviously, this was conducted by the government and they generally seem to have a dogmatic belief that MDMA is dangerous - which may be right or may not. But their conclusions seem fairly well-supported by the research. At least, it doesn’t seem like there’s any question that chronic use of MDMA can cause axon damage. Though I dunno if I can necessarily follow their next leap, which says that damage to serotonin axons = memory impairment.

The topic of MDMA is loaded with fear inducing propaganda. As the OP noted, there is a lot of bullshit floating around. It’s very sad that most of what people know about X seem to be a lie. Let’s seperate factfrom fiction so that some progress can be made, please!

Yes, that’s why I put this in GD originally. Didn’t seem like we there were a lot of hard and fast answers…
I wanna read what the eroid.org pages say, but the webs(w)erver there keeps crapping out on me. First my connection was refused, now it can’t even find the IP address for http://www.eroid.org. Mutter, grumble… I’ll keep trying.
-Ben

13

FWIW, I’m a biologist and read the primary published data, so I avoid urban legends/media hype. That said, I can only remember one study I thought valid, and there may be many, many more out there that I missed, since this isn’t a topic of huge interest to me.

The study I do remember boiled down to this - in monkeys dosed with large (but not rediculous) amounts of X for several months running, the seretonin-producing neurons eventually burned out and dyed. The resulting monkeys acted depressed, agressive, and self-destructive.

However, that data’s not worth much, since almost no humans (that I know of) are on X constantly. Rest periods during the week may make up for weekend use - or not.

I have heard anecdotal reports of people who were long term X users who ended up with chronic depression, possibly due to dysfunstion of seritonin-producing neurons. But, as I’m sure you realize, this is a self-selected population. You will hear from people who are depressed and blaming it on drug use, but most people who aren’t depressed won’t be out there complaining.

So after four paragraphs: I don’t know. And I suspect nobody else does either. And I think JillGat is right, there is a huge range in individual responses.

My best advice is to go out there and talk to people who have been using/know people who have been using the any drug you may have an interest in. Allow for the fact that they have a postive bias, as they clearly like these drugs. Judge for yourself if they seem impaired, or more impaired than they started off. Sure, it’s anecdotal, but if you talk to enough people with enough experience, you begin to approach the range of “expert”. And, since good controlled experiments of this sort are illegal in humans, I think it might be the best information out there.

Just my humble opinion…

mischievous

14

Anything that monkeys with your serotonin system should really be handled most cautiously, people. Our data on what the SSRI’s (antidepressants like prozac) do is a whole lot more complete than our data on MDMA, yet people are screaming about how the SSRI’s are bad for you; yet many of these same people don’t seem to think taking MDMA is bad.

My take from reading the professional literature: We don’t know yet the threshold for permanent neurologic change from MDMA. Quite frankly, I’d not be at all surprised to find the threshold is a lot lower than previously thought. And probably does not require chronic or daily use. But we won’t have more hard data until we get to study more users of it more thoroughly with PET scans, cognitive function testing, etc. And we’ll need to test them before and after dosing. It takes awhile to accumulate info that sophisticated.

Neurodoc, you out there? I know your knowledge of this stuff is orders of magnitude better than mine!

QtM

15

Beware Ecstasy
By Robin Foster
HealthScoutNews Reporter

WEDNESDAY, Oct. 24 (HealthScoutNews) – You may want to add liver
failure to the list of dangers tied to the club drug ecstasy.

A new report from doctors at the University of Nebraska Medical
Center found that ecstasy caused profound liver damage in a young
woman who eventually died. Although the woman claimed she had only
taken half a tablet of the club drug, her body reacted drastically,
the researchers say.

“You never know who’s going to react,” says lead author Dr. Nuri
Ozden. “What happens is people go to a party, they take ecstasy, they
dance, they get dehydrated. Due to the hypertension, the liver and
kidney get injured due to the lack of blood. They get a significant
amount of fluid loss, and if they don’t keep up their fluid intake,
organs don’t get enough blood flow. The kidney and the liver are the
most vulnerable.”

Ozden presented his findings yesterday at the annual meeting of the
American College of Gastroenterology in Atlanta.

In the case study, doctors report that a 24-year-old woman was
transferred to the medical center’s liver transplant unit after
having jaundice for 48 hours and suffering liver damage. She admitted
to taking half a tablet of ecstasy, but denied using any other drugs
or alcohol. Her condition deteriorated rapidly, and doctors had to
intubate her. Knowing her liver was about to fail, they found a donor
liver and grafted part of that onto her liver. The graft failed, she
started having seizures, and her brain hemorrhaged. At that point,
her family requested she be taken off life support.

Ozden notes that patients whose livers fail because of medications
often don’t respond well to transplants. “It’s a multi-system
failure, not just one organ,” he explains.

In Europe, where ecstasy use is more common, about 20 to 30 cases of
liver failure have been reported, he adds. But the drug damages
whatever organ it attacks, often causing kidney damage, brain
seizures and heart attacks.

“It doesn’t surprise me,” says Dr. Steven Lee, a clinical instructor
at the New York University School of Medicine who researches the
effects of club drugs. “I’ve heard of a couple of cases of liver
failures and liver deaths. I’ve also heard of people getting
hepatitis from using ecstasy.”

Lee notes that it’s hard to pin down the exact effects of ecstasy
because you can’t do clinical trials, and that when people report
they took the drug, there’s no way of knowing whether it was really
ecstasy.

“Studies have shown that 20 percent to 60 percent of what’s sold as
ecstasy is not ecstasy at all. Sometimes it’s mixed with other
things, and sometimes there’s no ecstasy at all,” Lee says. “That
complicates things.”

To make matters worse, there’s a new drug out there that’s similar to
ecstasy but much more toxic, Lee adds. It’s called PMA, or
paramethoxyamphetamine, and although reports of PMA deaths using
first cropped up in Australia, it’s working its way here.

Another uncertainty is that not everyone’s liver reacts the same way
to club drugs, he adds: “Each person’s liver has a different ability
to metabolize ecstasy or PMA. Slow metabolisms may be more
susceptible.” And taking any other medications that slow your
metabolism, such as Prozac, can spell trouble.

Ecstasy is a synthetic drug that produces both stimulant and
hallucinogenic effects. Studies suggest its chemical structure might
cause memory problems and possibly brain damage, according to the
National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA).

“What’s coming out in studies is that, in addition to death, people
are having, even years later, problems with thinking, memory and
mental attention,” Lee notes.

Scientists know that ecstasy causes the release of the brain chemical
serotonin, which is associated with mood. The resulting high, which
lasts from several minutes to an hour, produces increased energy,
along with a feeling of peacefulness and empathy.

But there’s a bad side to the drug. It can cause side effects, like
nausea, blurred vision, faintness, chills or sweating. And increases
in heart rate and blood pressure can be especially dangerous for
people with circulatory or heart disease.

That hasn’t stopped 1.3 million American teen-agers from trying it,
although maybe it should.

“It’s a risky trip,” says Ozden. “It’s a killer.”

16

I’m posting these articles (with permission) because we get asked about this a lot. - Jill

Memory Loss from Ecstasy May Be Lasting
by GayHealth Staff

Ever hear someone quip that their memory loss is the result of too
much fun in college? Well there is some evidence to substantiate that
claim.

According to a new study, using ecstasy may have a long lasting
effect on memory loss even after you stop using it. Other studies
have found that ecstasy damages brain serotonin (5-HT) neurons in
animals, which are linked to memory function.

“In the longer term, research shows that ecstasy can cause lasting
changes in the brain’s chemical systems that control mood and
memory,” said Dr. Alan I. Leshner, director of the National Institute
on Drug Abuse (NIDA).

According to a study published in the October issue of the Archives
of General Psychiatry, while these brain neurons may eventually
recover, harm to your memory function may be long lasting.

Researchers from the Academic Medical Center in Amsterdam, the
Netherlands, examined the brain neurons and memory function of 51
participants. Twenty-two of the participants had recently used
ecstasy, 16 had stopped using ecstasy for at least one year and there
was a control group of 13 non users.

While the brain abnormalities were different between current and past
users, the loss of memory was similar when compared to the control
group.

Research shows that Ecstasy can cause lasting changes in the brain’s
chemical systems that control mood and memory.

“The present study suggests that, while the neurotoxic effects of
MDMA on 5-HT neurons in the human cortex may be reversible, the
effects of MDMA on memory function may be long-lasting,” the study
authors concluded.

Scientists and researchers convened at a conference in July to focus
on the drug ecstasy, it’s long-term consequences, drug interactions,
patterns of abuse, risk perceptions, and implications for prevention
and treatment research.

“The latest research shows that ecstasy, despite its name, is not a
harmless ‘party’ drug. In the short term, ecstasy can cause dramatic
changes in heart rate and blood pressure, dehydration, and a
potentially life-threatening increase in body temperature,” said
Leshner.

Updated: Tuesday, 16 October 2001

17

SOURCE: Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration
New Trends Released for Drug Related Emergency Department Visits
20 Percent Increase Found for Youth Age 12 to 17

WASHINGTON, July 25 /PRNewswire/ – Emergency department visits
involving the club drug MDMA (Ecstasy) increased 58 percent, from
2,850 visits in 1999 to 4,511 in 2000 in the continental United
States. The number of heroin/morphine related visits increased 15
percent, from 84,409 to 97,287. These and other significant trends in
drug related emergency department visits are reported for the first
time today with the release of the Substance Abuse and Mental Health
Services Administration’s (SAMHSA) 2000 Emergency Department Data
from the Drug Abuse Warning Network (DAWN).

Among 21 metropolitan areas covered by DAWN, 7 had increases in drug
related emergency department visits from 1999 to 2000: 32 percent in
Seattle (from 8,426 to 11,116), 28 percent in Boston (from 11,699 to
14,902), 22 percent in Los Angeles (from 20,678 to 25,288), 20
percent in Miami (from 7,128 to 8,560), 16 percent in Chicago (from
26,158 to 30,330), 12 percent in Minneapolis (from 4,643 to 5,198),
and 9 percent in Phoenix (from 8,293 to 9,072).

Drug related emergency department visits decreased 19 percent in
Baltimore (from 14,172 to 11,505) and 12 percent in San Francisco
(from 8,930 to 7,857). No overall changes were reported in Atlanta
(11,114 visits), Buffalo (2,899), Dallas (6,798), Denver (4,946),
Detroit (17,042), New Orleans (4,664), New York (31,885), Newark
(7,749), Philadelphia (23,433), St. Louis (6,908), San Diego (7,094),
and Washington, DC (10,303).

This report shows again that we face serious gaps in preventing and treating substance abuse, especially with club drugs,'' said Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy G. Thompson. Our first line of
defense against substance abuse must be prevention. We need to reach
out to people before they become statistics in emergency departments -

  • or worse, in the morgue. This is why it’s so important for Congress
    to move quickly to approve the Administration’s drug prevention and
    treatment budget.’’

From Chicago Daily Herald

Tuesday August 07 07:45 AM EDT

Why state is getting tough on club drugs

By John Patterson Daily Herald State Government Writer
SPRINGFIELD - New, tougher laws for drug dealers won’t bring back Bob
and Jan Aeschlimann’s daughter.

But the Naperville couple hope they will stop other children from
experimenting with so-called club drugs like Ecstasy and make them
and their parents aware of the dangers of the increasingly popular
and often deadly drugs.

“Unfortunately it wasn’t soon enough for us. Hopefully it will be for
other people,” said Bob Aeschlimann after Gov. George Ryan signed the
new law.

Sara Aeschlimann died of a lethal overdose of a drug known as PMA,
which is similar but stronger than Ecstasy. Her death occurred on May
14, 2000, Mother’s Day. She was 18 and a senior at Naperville
Central. One of her friends, Garrett Harth, faces involuntary
manslaughter charges on suspicion he provided her with the drugs.

Dubbed “club drugs” because of their popularity at underground clubs
and all-night rave parties, Ecstasy and its variations have shown up
with increasing frequency in the suburban area, said DuPage County
State’s Attorney Joseph Birkett.

The new law signed by the governor on Monday goes into effect Jan. 1
and moves Ecstasy, PMA and other so-called club drugs into the same
category as cocaine, heroin and LSD under the state’s criminal laws.
As a result, those caught dealing the drug will face more prison time
and will not be eligible for probation.

Birkett said drug dealers have moved into club drugs because the
penalties were less severe. As a result, the drugs have spread
rapidly with little knowledge of the potential dangers or varying
levels of potency the drugs pack.

Under current law, someone could be caught with up to 900 pills of
the drug and still be eligible for probation. Beginning Jan. 1,
anyone caught dealing as few as 15 pills faces a Class X felony
charge punishable by up to 30 years in prison. Probation is not an
option.

“There’s no question that the deterrent value is there,” Birkett said
of the tougher penalties.

Ryan said the law was “long overdue” and should send a message to
drug dealers. Sponsors of the new law included House Republican
Leader Lee A. Daniels of Elmhurst and Sen. Kirk Dillard, a Hinsdale
Republican.

Also on hand for the signing of the new law Monday were Stephen and
Kate Patton. Kate’s daughter Kelley McEnery Baker died in 1999 of an
Ecstasy overdose. The law is named after her. Kate Patton, who lives
in Rolling Meadows, formed the Kelley McEnery Baker Foundation to
raise awareness of Ecstasy.

Stephen Patton, Kelley’s stepfather and a Springfield resident, said
the state’s efforts show Kelley “didn’t die in vain.”

Police in New Jersey found Baker’s body in a motel room. She and her
boyfriend were both dead from overdoses. According to media reports,
the police also found $35,000 in marijuana, $6,000 worth of Ecstasy
and other drugs in the room.

Kate Patton said she lost her daughter to Ecstasy three times, first
when she started using, then when she began dealing, and finally to
an overdose.

18

Whoops. Forgot to post a link to the Straight Dope staff report about this: http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mdesignerdrug.html

19

ModernRonin2:

MDMA can cast light upon a few facets of your life that you might rather have left alone. Imagine having a drastic change in your personality for a few hours; and by drastic I mean frequently life changing. Many people are secure with themselves how they are and doing X could unsettle them, to say the least.

The study is biased by the researchers own beliefs, which are clearly anti-MDMA. The study really revealed no real link between MDMA and memory impairment, though they did imply it. The people tested were not subjected to any cognitive testing before their MDMA use, so there is really nothing to compare to. Essentially, the only fact we can glean from it is that one group of people scored lower than another group of people in a series of cognitive tests. I agree with you that research concludes that some axon damage occurs. I’m not an expert; maybe someone else can clarify serotonin’s roll in the brain. I have been led to believe that a lot of what we know about it is theory.

Try http://www.erowid.org :slight_smile:

20

As a former long term, heavy user of Ecstasy, I can offer anecdotal evidence that at least in my case it did cause some memory issues, and I do find that I am more prone to bouts of depression now than before I started. I did a lot of research and took the suggested precautions to help prevent neurotoxicity. However, the key point I want to stress is that Ecstasy is a street drug. As such there is no quality control and tests have proven that a large percentage do not contain MDMA at all, but some other cocktail of substances (see links in previous posts). With this in mind, no amount of research will be able to give you an accurate risk analysis, as you will never really know what it is you’re ingesting. All the MDMA research in the world won’t help you if you’re really taking PMA or PCP or just plain old caffeine.

fornit