And I can add to this, as I explained in my post:
It is not because a stranger is living in SA, that this stranger “is in a position to know” anything about this matter.
If he was attentive he should rather be “in a position to know” that he is a stranger, remains a stranger (and above that a Western foreigner) who is "living in SA ". On the outside of it.
Salaam. A
I’d just like to point out the fact that Chinese Malaysians are greatly affected by the university quota to “help” Malays get into university, when many of them are FAR less deserving. And the Anwar scandal etc did not help things either.
As far as political rights go, sure, I guess you could say that M’sia is ahead. But on the personal rights level, when you have states banning alcohol and video games, I really, really beg to differ. Or not beg.
Divorce Iranian Style, Kim Longinotto’s 1998 film offers some insight into the lives of unhappily married women in Iran. From this review by the Guardian’s estimable Nancy Banks Smith:
Sixteen-year-old Ziba succeeded in divorcing thirty eight year old truck driver Bahman. Bahman had lied about his wealth, his age and, tellingly his agreement to allow her to continue her education:
The judge eventually told Bahman he should have known better.
Ziba had no children, if she had she could not have kept them once they were past infancy:
There were two things that struck me to women’s advantage: They would argue eloquently for their right to sexual pleasure and to have children. And the judge threatened to send one man to jail for spending nights away from home…
I forgot to say…the film is banned in Iran.
Hmm. Like an attentive Belgian Muslim is in a position to know anything about Americans ?
I’ll let Paul respond directly to this, but judging from most of his posts on the subject, he’s well aware of his status in SA. In any event, SA is the place where women aren’t allowed to drive and have to contend with religious police who beat them with sticks if they are seen breaking religious laws in public, and who do much worse than that at times. So I don’t think S.A. is your best bet for defending Islam from charges of sexism, especially since I and most people will grant you that much more freedom for women exists in other Muslim countries.
I will tell you also that I have formed a very low impression of Muslim culture because of several women I have known personally who had sisters who married Muslim men. One was repeatedly forced to bear children against her will and her doctor’s advice by her Muslim husband, despite the fact that her reproductive equipment was messed up and getting more messed up with every birth. Another had a sister who finally left her Muslim husband, then had to hide out for fear of her cousins, who came to America with plans to beat her up. Fortunately, they were unable to find her.
I have also communicated with women online who have married Muslim men and they all say the same: they are very nice and egalitarian while in Western countries, but if you go to THEIR country things change rapidly, and not for the better. This has made me VERY suspicious of Muslim culture generally.
I can understand that my personal anecdotal evidence is not convincing to others, but it’s been VERY convincing to me. I suggest anyone who is very interested find women who have either married Muslim men or have close relatives married to Muslim men, online or in person, and check things out for yourself.
Mind you, I knew these women and heard these stories LOOOONG before 9/11. In the case of one sister, twenty years before 9/11, in the case of another, about eight years before.
I wouldn’t know. Maybe you should go to a Belgian website and ask the Belgian Muslims about it.
Salaam. A
There is (or was when I was doing business in Malaysia) also an issue there in starting businesses, with a Bumiputera quotient required for shareholding in any Malaysian company. But these unfair “positive discrimination” practices are ethnic issues dating back to the uprising British rule in Malaya, not religious ones.
I didn’t read much of this member’s post so far but from what I read I see that he is not very “happy” in or with that country. I always wonder why he went there and even more why he stays there.
I think you should read my posts on SA.
Who starts tallking about SA?
Paul did and now you do.
I know many Western women who married Western men and ended up with an abusive controlefreak. I don’t form my impression about Western culture on their stories.
Well, that is possible. The same is possible with every other husband who is a beast in human disguise.
Yes, I can see such things happen. Clearly it has less to do with “Islam” then with their personality in combination with their background and culture.
On the other hand: I would not like to support financially all the Western women who must run and hide for their Western non-Muslim husband.
Or why do Western societies have “safe houses” and “shelters for women”?
Do you claim that they have as their goal to give shelter and support for women who must run and hide from their Muslim husband?
Yes, such things happen. Again it has to do with their personality in combination with their background and culture which influences their interpretation of their religion.
Maybe you could try to gain a broather perspective.
See above.
It happens to be that my European Catholic mother married my Arab Muslim father and that she left her family and homeland behind for this.
I don’t think you can get closer then that, can you?
I can imagine you repeating over and over again to yourself these stories but I don’t see what 9/11 has to do with any of them.
Salaam. A
Sorry. I thought you were a Muslim with a Belgian mother and hads lived in Belgium.
Really?
I can’t quite follow your reasoning. Can you explain to me how having a European mother would then miraculously make me a “Belgian” or more in general “European” Muslim who “knows (or does not know, as your post clearly implies to say) about the USA”?
Maybe you should first of all read my posts in this thread.
You can also read this thread:
Because you see: Posts like yours, disrupting discussions with nonsense spread by an other member, are the reason why I made that thread.
When come back, consider to bring something useful in connection to the OP.
I have some idea however that you are not qualified to have any insight in the matter.
Salaam. A
I have not been involved in this thread very much. Forgive me if I am repeating what someone else said.
Can you tell me how common woman’s shelters are in muslim countries? How they are viewed? I found a few cites on google, but they all seem to be from biased sources.
Well, “power” can mean many different things. And even in a society where women lack rights that a Westerner would consider inalienable, women can wield a great deal of influence.
Think about this: in America, Chrstianity is generally thought of as a patriarchal religion… and yet, if you were to ask a devout Catholic or Baptist, “Who was it that made sure you got up, got dressed and went to church every Sunday,” it’s a safe bet he’d say, “My mother.” Ask him “Who taught you all the basics of your religiopn,” and he’d almost certainly tell you, “My mother.” Ask him “Who instilled all the basic values (including standard Christian guilt!!) that guide you,” and he’ll tell you “My mother.”
Get the idea? Even if men SEEM to be in charge in most Christian denominations, it’s WOMEN who have most of the control as a practical, day-to-day matter! Well, in the same way, I’d wager most Moslems would tell you that their mothers were the ones who taught them all the basics of the faith, who taught them to go to the mosque, to say their prayers 5 times daily, etc.
Moreover, even in fundamentalist Islamic states, it’s often WOMEN who do most of the religious policing! A friend who spent several years as a teacher in Saudi Arabia told me that when his wife stepped out of the house wearing clothes that were indecent by Islamic standards, it was Moslem WOMEN who besieged her and insisted she go home and put on more clothing. And if she dared try to drive a car, it was usually Moslem WOMEN who rushed to put a stop to this shocking behavior!
It may seem odd to you, but in many Islamic nations, WOMEN are the ones who insist most strongly on strict adherence to the Koran and on strict control of female behavior. Theye’re also the ones who ENFORCE the rules, in many cases. That may not be YOUR kind of power, but power it is, nonetheless!
A colleague was serving in Afghanistan until earlier this year and has said some very uncomplimentary things about womens’ rights there under the Taleban.
I must emphasize, as others have already done, that Saudi Arabia is a completely psychotic fundamentalist environment. Don’t take the very worst of a religion as illustrative of the general situation.
That said, within Saudi Arabia there are movements for change. Some of them are even sponsored by the more progressive of the Royal Family. Though I must note the problem is not so much the Royals as the rabid fundamentalists that hold so much power in the kingdom.
And look at this. To anyone who knows anything about Saudi Arabia this fresh news is almost surprising:
This is an important message, also because the Riyadh Chamber of Commerce and Inustry actually has some serious clout.
And don’t forget the instances such as Nabila Mahjoob, a woman who writes an influential column in the Al-Madinah paper (indeed, she was recently suspended for having dared to allege corruption in the country’s financial institututions; she was reinstated after a month).
It doesn’t get much worse than Saudi Arabia for women – excepting perhaps rural Pakistan – yet even in Saudi Arabia there are glimmers of hope. For any Dopers considering the usual bursts of feel-righteous condemnation, I suggest you channel your energy instead into acts of outreach – the people working on the ground really need it.
There are actually several hundreds of encouraging news tidbits. Look at this press release:
That, and women were allowed, in principle, to vote at municipal elections, though in practice they will not do so this year (based on a combination of excuses as well as legitimate reasons, such as the claim that only 10% of women hold ID cards, but I think this is simply a way to engineer a soft landing for this initiative so that in future years it can be correctly implemented and help raise the status of women). This is progressive stuff for a country that has had to develop a modern state in just a few decades, where patriarchal misogyny is a fairly widespread cultural trait.
There’s quite a few interesting such stories to be found regularly on the English language www.ArabNews.com.
As far as I know there everywhere organisations who focuss on such problems. Even in Afghanistan under the mad Taliban rule there were women who risked their lives to give girls and women a basic education.
I have no real view on how such organisations function since I have no contacts with people inside their structure or with people who make use of them.
In my personal opinion they are a necessity and have a purpose and aim that is multifold. They help women in need for such assistence, but also - more in general where women know such organisations exist - they make women aware of it that they have rights (how limited they may be in some cases) and that there is help available in case they need support to have them ensured and implemented.
As for your information, which you call “biased”.
Unless they start from a complete fantasy, even one sided or not completely honest sources can give you information on a subject if you keep in mind that situations are not necessarely exactly described.
Salaam. A
Going further on the fascination in this thread about SA: I’ve heard that they have now also their first female airline pilote.
I really don’t know why people are so focussed on a country like Saudi Arabia ( I also saw the inevitable Taliban comment).
People seem to have difficulties to gather more information about the Middle East (since the OP focussed on the ME) then what is spoon-fed to to them by the collective memory, build and entertained by your Popular Media (which includes The New God called Internet).
Salaam. A
I understand this. Allow me to explain. I was looking for some sort of information on how prevelant womens shelters are in islamic countries compard o non islamic countries of roughly the same socio economic level. The only thing I found were unabashedly christian sites which seemed to have a strong bias against islam in general. I found several sites with advice or information about muslim communities in America, but almost none (besides the aforementioned biased ones) about the condition of women’s shelters in Islamic countries.
I would still have used them as sources if I could have found any more moderate site or even better an islamic site which agreed even in order of magnitude. I try very hard not to use sites about a situation from one side only. Especially when that side is opposed to the issue or idea in question.
If you want to have information on the subject women’s shelters, maybe this publication can be helpful.
Global List of Women’s Organisations
http://www.distel.ca/womlist/womlist.html
It’s a list of organisations world wide, including contact information (sometimes also brief introduction to the work of the organisation).
Salaam. A