How would you call out this person's bad behavior at work?

[Chimera]

@JcWoman

. ** I think from now on I will book the meetings, so that I can control the situation.** (Just the meetings between she and I. I can’t block him from larger meetings, nor do I want to.)

Good solution.

If he decides to walk in the room, please be firm in stating that it is a 1:1 meeting.

[TruCelt]

@JcWoman

. . .
Coming back to the unhealthy level of deference the woman coworker shows to him, I wonder if it’s a cultural thing. They are both east Indian. I’ve worked with Indians a fair amount and have never noticed the women deferring to their male coworkers. Is this a thing, or is it just something about these two individuals?

Yes, it is cultural. I had a similar problem in my last project. You may even find that he does not do this with women from Western cultures.

Your primary goal should be to encourage and model polite assertiveness for this woman. Perhaps suggest an assertiveness training course to her. You have raised the issue with her before and she is clearly annoyed, but she’s regressing into passivity rather than challenging the dynamic. It is ultimately useless to address his behavior without addressing hers. If she fails to act on the change, the situation will quickly revert.

Keep in mind that she may not be receptive at first. Just by going to an office each day she may be seen as a very strong woman by her family members. (Or not, but it was so in my case.) Take the tack of releasing the information like butterflies near her; she’ll chase them or she won’t. In my case, the lady came back to me about six months later and asked for my advice and how to find classes on the subject.

In the mean time:

• If he walks into a meeting to which he was not invited, stand up to greet him. walk toward the door as you speak with him, assuring him that you had reserved the meeting room, and are very sorry if there was a mix-up.

• Whenever he interrupts say “I want to hear what XXX had to say” and turn pointedly toward her.

• When he interrupts do not turn toward him or look at him. Continue to make eye contact with her and hold up a “wait a minute” finger to him. When she is done talking, then turn to him and ask “Did you want to add something?”

• If he succeeds in intruding on a meeting, Don’t answer his questions, write them down. Tell him you’ll be happy to get back to him, but you reserved this time for XXX’s questions. Turn your attention pointedly back to her.

• Don’t be afraid to be stern with him. He’s an upstart who is monopolizing the conversation; treat him as such. “I’m sure you don’t mean to be rude, but you have just interrupted XXX; please let her finish.”

• After a few iterations of the above, he may be a bit cranky and off-balance. Take him aside and let him know that his behavior has been unacceptable. Tell him you are certain that he is unaware of how disruptive it is, but that you are concerned it may work against him in YYY company culture. “No one can feel comfortable recommending you for a management position if you are seen as dismissive or unsupportive to your colleagues. It is very important to be polite in meetings and encourage input from everyone present.”

• If you hear him co-opting one of her ideas, nod enthusiastically, gesture to XXX and say “Yes, that was an excellent idea.” A meaningful look to the manager may also be appropriate - use judgement.

• If he continues to try to take credit, frown at him and look concerned, as if his memory may be failing. Or (again, if appropriate) flick your eyes to Manager and give a tiny headshake.

• And just, in general, don’t be afraid to glare. Glaring is severely under-rated in today’s society.

If all else fails, take it to their manager(s) as a training request. She needs assertiveness training, you feel it would do an enormous amount to help the productivity of the team. He needs an active listening course, as his interruptions have been counter-productive. Meaningful look . . . raised eyebrows . … humorously exasperated head shake.

Hope that helps; please ignore anything that doesn’t.

[Voyager]

@JcWoman

When the guy inserts himself into the meetings between me and the woman, he also usurps the agenda. We spend the whole time discussing what he wants to know but she presents questions as if they’re hers, which is how I didn’t cotton to what was going on. Then after the meeting she texts me to say that she never got a chance to ask what she wanted to. She defers to him way too much, until she’s fed up and they blow up in a fight. (I like the idea of meeting with her in the bathroom!) When this happened yesterday, I told her she needs to tell him that he can’t join the meeting and she replied that she was too tired to argue with him.

He tries to delegate his work to coworkers. I’ve seen him do this to the woman coworker, but this morning another coworker told me he tried it on her too, and she called him out on it, cc’ed to their manager. Yes, it’s very much a “that Stimpson is a take-charge kinda guy!” situation.

One thing I’ve seen done (and adapted myself) is to schedule a few minutes at the end of each meeting for a meeting review, where the leader goes around the table and asks for what went right and what went wrong in the meeting. That gives an opportunity for everyone to note that the agenda got hijacked, and do it in a non-confrontational way. And it can be suggested without reference to the problem.
This turned one meeting I attended from a total waste of time into a model of efficiency - and we didn’t have the kinds of problems you are having.

[Voyager]

@j666

No, I want to be seen as a professional, and treat my co-workers as professionals. I am also unlikely to defer to newer and less experienced co-workers, especially when they are being rude.

Some people find it very easy to interrupt others; others do not. While I respect the manners and upbringing of those who are reluctant to interrupt, someone does have to step on the little toads. Politely, of course.

To repeat, the person being interrupted definitely should squelch the interrupter - assuming it is a peer, anyway, and assuming the comments are not productive.
Third parties on the other hand need to take it up with the person owning the meeting off line. Otherwise a two person war can become a three person war. Obnoxious interrupters are unlikely to see the light when a peer challenges them.
Yes, we’d love for a Monty Pythonish 2 ton weight to fall on their heads, but in real life we need to be careful.

[Voyager]

@JcWoman

They are small, casual meetings where the female coworker wants to learn more about one of our products. I’m always happy to share knowledge but like to whiteboard things if need be, so I tell her to throw something on our calendars and get us a room. When I show up, there he is, and she tells me that he wanted to come too. I think from now on I will book the meetings, so that I can control the situation. (Just the meetings between she and I. I can’t block him from larger meetings, nor do I want to.)

I think your ownership of the 1:1 meeting will work fine.
Assuming that there is no way to switch groups, is there a way you can get your manager to give you ownership of the appropriate meeting? Many managers are happy to dump something like this. If you get ownership, you can deal with the situation as part of running the meeting. It also makes people think of you as a manager - assuming you wouldn’t consider that a curse.

[j666]

@Voyager

To repeat, the person being interrupted definitely should squelch the interrupter - assuming it is a peer, anyway, and assuming the comments are not productive.
Third parties on the other hand need to take it up with the person owning the meeting off line. Otherwise a two person war can become a three person war. Obnoxious interrupters are unlikely to see the light when a peer challenges them.
Yes, we’d love for a Monty Pythonish 2 ton weight to fall on their heads, but in real life we need to be careful.

I disagree. It is appropriate for the person running the meeting to moderate it.

[Voyager]

@j666

I disagree. It is appropriate for the person running the meeting to moderate it.

That’s what I’ve been saying. My impression has been that JcWoman does not run the big meetings she has been mentioning.

[j666]

I was referring to the meeting she tries to set up with one co-worker that the other one moves in on.

[JcWoman]

Yeah, there seems to be confusion between meetings that are just between me and my female coworker and larger team meetings. The little meetings are just casual get togethers, and I only book them onto our calendars so that we can’t be interrupted and so we can book time in a room with a whiteboard. There’s no ownership of these. It’s just the two of us getting together to share information.

As to the larger meetings, I run some of them, other people run some of them. When they’re my meetings, I control them.

What I’ve noticed just in general here is that poor behavior isn’t controlled because people are too polite. (Until it gets someone really pissed, then they complain to the managers.)

[Voyager]

@JcWoman

As to the larger meetings, I run some of them, other people run some of them. When they’re my meetings, I control them.

What I’ve noticed just in general here is that poor behavior isn’t controlled because people are too polite. (Until it gets someone really pissed, then they complain to the managers.)

Do you try to control him in meetings you run? If so, what is his reaction?
The reason managers often don’t want to hear about this stuff is just what you say. Someone doesn’t confront the person causing the problem one to one, eventually gets frustrates it, and escalates it. Then it becomes a bigger issue than necessary.
Immediate correction is much better than correction a week later. Kind of like training a dog.

[TriPolar]

I didn’t have time to put anything in this thread before. You’ve been given plenty of good advice already. The only thing I’d add (mostly in jest, but not entirely) is that those two need to ‘get a room’. There may be a general problem with each of them, but they’re making it a personal problem between them.

[j666]

@JcWoman

…
What I’ve noticed just in general here is that poor behavior isn’t controlled because people are too polite. …

I have heard the theory that team sports teach one respectful opposition, and that the exclusion of girls from team sports in earlier generations has created a disadvantage in adversarial professional situations for women as a whole.

I don’t really buy it, but I do think learning to say “Pardon me, I hadn’t finished” is a critical professional skill.

Here’s a test I’d think every person here to try: steal a person’s idea in a meeting. The next time you hear what you think is a good idea be shrugged off, re-state it five minutes later, or in the next meeting, whatever works. See if it flies. Make note of when it files.

Of course, if it works, give credit to the person. But take note of when you get away with it, and when you don’t.

[JcWoman]

@Voyager

Do you try to control him in meetings you run? If so, what is his reaction?
The reason managers often don’t want to hear about this stuff is just what you say. Someone doesn’t confront the person causing the problem one to one, eventually gets frustrates it, and escalates it. Then it becomes a bigger issue than necessary.
Immediate correction is much better than correction a week later. Kind of like training a dog.

Yeah, he argues. That doesn’t bother me, I just repeat myself until he shuts the hell up. But that’s not great. He seems to have a very egotistical point of view, i.e. “you’re all doing it wrong and this is how it should be done”. Pretty much everybody has seen that the problem is with this guy - he argues with everybody over everything, including a trainer that was brought in to teach us something!

And yes, I’ve gotten good advice here. It’s all taken and will be used.

@j666

Here’s a test I’d think every person here to try: steal a person’s idea in a meeting. The next time you hear what you think is a good idea be shrugged off, re-state it five minutes later, or in the next meeting, whatever works. See if it flies. Make note of when it files.

Of course, if it works, give credit to the person. But take note of when you get away with it, and when you don’t.

What exactly would this prove?

[Napier]

@TroutMan

If it’s two other coworkers not getting along, you said it in your first paragraph: “it’s not my business.” But obviously it can impact you. So that’s the way (the ONLY way) you can bring this up to them or a manager. Focus on what impact their behavior has on you. To the extent possible, leave out anything about their relationship with each other.

It’s none of your business if the manager treats them like siamese twins. It is your business if he won’t let you speak, so raise that issue, not the other stuff.

Sorry, but I really must disagree here. To some degree, we own whatever we walk past without fixing. If individuals are getting mistreated or their opportunities to contribute are getting thwarted, or if the organization is being harmed, it’s the business of anybody who can help to try to do so.

Certainly it is cleaner to remain uninvolved when negative impacts fall on others but not ourselves, and certainly it’s easier to navigate a discussion about what hurt me in particular. Also, one hopes managers (who have more responsibility to notice and fix things) would not let issues fall through the cracks. But we all have some obligation to try to help when a problem lingers, as this one seems to.

[TroutMan]

@Napier

To some degree, we own whatever we walk past without fixing. If individuals are getting mistreated or their opportunities to contribute are getting thwarted, or if the organization is being harmed, it’s the business of anybody who can help to try to do so.

For life in general, I agree with you 100%. But the business world doesn’t always work like this. In a structured organization like the OP is at, there is a chain of command and it is important to be aware of that. The best intentions are thwarted if the approach isn’t diplomatic.

Note that I never said she should not get involved; I said that her best course of action is to address it in terms of the impact to her, not as an issue solely between the two other employees. Complaining about how person X treats person Y will likely make person X think you’re a tattletale, person Y think you don’t consider them able to solve their own problems, and the manager to think you’re paying too much attention to other people’s business instead of your own.

In my head, I was including impact to the business along with the impact to the OP. But I didn’t actually say that and should have been more clear on that point.

[Green_Bean]

@JcWoman

…I don’t have any issues with her, except that she can’t seem to stay away from the other guy, so they end up in arguments all the time.

I haven’t seen this bit addressed yet.

He sounds like a total ass, but it seems that she has a level of culpability here too.

While she definitely needs assertiveness training or something, it doesn’t sound like she’s doing anything to disengage from the guy. Just the opposite, really. I know you said the manager keeps assigning them to work together, but it doesn’t sound like she’s doing a whole lot to establish her own independence from him. For example, she explains his presence at a meeting that was supposed to be one-on-one with you by “he wanted to come.” But why did she even tell him you guys were meeting? She knew what would happen.

She could mitigate the problem to at least some extent by avoiding him where possible, but she’s not. According to what you’ve said, she’s actively seeking him out.

In order to find a workable solution, perhaps you may have to try to figure out why she is enabling him. I don’t mean to sound like I’m victim-blaming here, but I am suggesting that there must be a reason she’s spending more time in the line of fire than she has to.

@TruCelt

• If he walks into a meeting to which he was not invited, stand up to greet him. walk toward the door as you speak with him, assuring him that you had reserved the meeting room, and are very sorry if there was a mix-up.

I like this idea.

The tactic of pretending that his inappropriate behavior is just the result of some sort of misunderstanding could be deployed in other situations as well. Like if she tries to answer and he jumps in: “Oh, sorry if I wasn’t clear, Raj, but I wanted to see what Asha’s opinion on this was.”

[Voyager]

@JcWoman

Yeah, he argues. That doesn’t bother me, I just repeat myself until he shuts the hell up. But that’s not great. He seems to have a very egotistical point of view, i.e. “you’re all doing it wrong and this is how it should be done”. Pretty much everybody has seen that the problem is with this guy - he argues with everybody over everything, including a trainer that was brought in to teach us something!

And yes, I’ve gotten good advice here. It’s all taken and will be used.

Trainers should take lessons from standup comics on how to deal with hecklers.
I guess he won’t get the message until a senior manager says “shut up, Sanjay” (assuming that’s his name) or the problem shows up on an evaluation.
Good luck.

[Green_Bean]

I already named him Raj, dude. But you just had to contradict me…say, you’re not an arrogant young east Indian guy who just got put on a team with JcWoman, are you?

[constanze]

@JcWoman

And yes, I’ve gotten good advice here. It’s all taken and will be used.

You do realize that we are waiting to hear back from you what/ if worked? (Hopefully successful!)

[JcWoman]

Well it may take some time, however I am already putting these things into practice with all of my coworkers! For example this morning I was in a meeting called by one of the managers, with a few coworkers. (A planning type session, not disciplinary.) The topic was X but the manager allowed one of the coworkers (not the jerk guy who was unusually quiet this time) to launch himself onto another topic and then go on and on. After about ten minutes I interrupted to say “I’m sorry to interrupt, but are we done with topic X?” Manager and spouty guy acted admonished and we got back on topic.

Not long after that I realized that I am always managing up, down and around. Okay, not down because I don’t have any direct reports. But it’s amazing how many people I’m managing!