Men and Arguing

In My Humble Opinion
1

Last week, my coworker was venting about how her husband will tolerate no interruptions from her when he is “discussing” something with her. Even if she needs to ask a question to clarify a point (as in, “Honey, I have no idea what you are talking about…are we still discussing the garage door?”) or if he is working on a misconception and a word or two from her would clear everything up (as in, “No, you misheard me, I DID find that item at the store and it’s on the counter behind you”).

He says they are having a discussion, but he gets angry if she tries to participate. As much as she tries to tell him that a discussion is a conversation where two people talk in a give and take manner, he just shuts her down with the “let me finish” speech. If she tries to jump in to answer one of his concerns while words are still flowing from his mouth…even if he is just repeating the same thing he’s been saying for twenty minutes…if she dares to open her mouth before he has completely run out of steam (by then she has completely forgotten what she wanted to say…is this possibly his goal?) he gets angrier and rants on longer.

It’s the “interrupting” that seems to be the problem.

And my son does exactly the same thing. Uses the same words, too. And they don’t know each other. And my ex-husband used this technique. So I know it’s not just an isolated problem.

What, dear Doper men, is the problem with men? Why do we women have to sit there, arms folded, waiting until you finally, finally run out of steam before we can say a word? I asked my son, and he just laughed…said he really wasn’t interested at all in my point of view at those times, and he just wanted to rant. He knows nothing productive will come of it, but he just wants to vent and talk. He’s 23. I told him to break this habit now…

And Doper women…if you have a man like this, who does this from time to time (this doesn’t happen in every discussion, by the way…just from time to time) how do you handle this without resorting to violence to get him to just let you get a word in to explain what he’s complaining about?

2

You’ll have to meet my mom.

It’s not a male/female issue. It’s a self-important versus non issue, which appears to be perfectly rampant on either side of the fence.

3

I’m male but not like that.

To a degree, interrupting is rude. Some people were probably raised in homes where it simply wasn’t allowed.

So why do I suspect that the males in this case feel free to interrupt others? That’s rule #1 with me—don’t subject me to a rule that you yourself are unwilling to follow. When your son interrupts you, parrot back the spiel he gives you.

IMO the situation you describe goes beyond normal. It’s all about control. I’ve had relationships with women that are similar. I suspect what’s really going on is they’re anticipating arguments and addressing every single one of them, trying to pre-empt your concerns, cutting you off before you can refute them, insisting that “I’ve got this all worked out in my head, so don’t confuse the issue with the facts,” etc. Or it’s used car salesmanship…“I notice this has damage over here”/“But look at these seats. They’re wonderful, and comfortable. Sit, you’ll see what I mean. You don’t find that in every car…” [until you’re ready to kill yourself with a dull spoon].

I’d get a timer that you can set. “Three minutes…go!” After three minutes, it beeps. You respond for three minutes. Absent that, a notepad to write what you’ll need to respond to once you get your chance.

4

I don’t think this is just a male problem. I’ve been on the recieving end of this sort of thing from several women. It’s a Control issue at heart, but it can also be about the need to SAY something and get it all out. Especially if the other party is in the habit of constantly interupting you and/or diverting the conversation.

Twenty minutes at a stretch? Now we’re getting into Unreasonable territory. That’s not a Conversation, that’s a Diatribe.

The best solution I’ve ever encountered involves third parties (ie, friends and family) if they happen to be in the room. Which granted, is not in every case. But if they are present and it is one of those misunderstandings, you simply turn to them and calmly say “Can someone explain to him that I did find that thing he’s ranting about?”. At that point, Ranter looks like a raving loon and is embarassed in front of others. He’s lost his point and is looking like an asshole in front of others. The longer he continues, the worse it gets for him.

Unfortunately, I have no peacable solution for long rants in private. The only solution I ever found with my ex-wife was to try to scream my point over the top of her and/or leave the room. After all, she would do the same to me.

But back to the OP idea: Interrupting someone in the middle of a statement is rude, even if they’re wrong. Hell yes it pisses me off, especially if the other party makes it a regular habit. Yes, I know you have something to say, but Shut The Fuck Up and let me finish what I’m saying.

What you’re not seeing or hearing is the other side of that woman’s story. Does she have problems not allowing her husband to speak? Is she constantly talking over the top of him or through him? Because after a while, that sort of simmering resentment and emotional abuse could lead to long angry “don’t you dare fucking interrupt me” monologues.

Women do this differently. Hell, I’ve been in the room several times where there are five women and FOUR of them are talking simultaneously. That appears to me (and to most men) like none of you give a shit what the others are saying, you just want to talk. Men talking over the top of other men is viewed as disrespectful and rude.

5

[QUOTE=Chimera]

But back to the OP idea: Interrupting someone in the middle of a statement is rude, even if they’re wrong. Hell yes it pisses me off, especially if the other party makes it a regular habit. Yes, I know you have something to say, but Shut The Fuck Up and let me finish what I’m saying…Women do this differently. Hell, I’ve been in the room several times where there are five women and FOUR of them are talking simultaneously. That appears to me (and to most men) like none of you give a shit what the others are saying, you just want to talk. Men talking over the top of other men is viewed as disrespectful and rude.
[/QUOTE]

Ah, here we are getting to the heart of it…exactly what my son says…Shut up and let me finish. But if you listen to a group of women, or even two, having a discussion, even a heated one, it’s the constant give and take, jumping in to clarify or confirm, finishing each others thoughts (which shows that we understand the other person’s point, by the way, and is for the most part considered a good thing). Only rarely will you get the “listen to my lecture/rant” type thing between women.

6

It is definitely not a male - female thing. My wife often talks/argues in monologue for minutes at a time. I have tried to talk to her about it (imagine that paradox) but it rarely helps for long. I have tried various things like raising my hand (literally as in elementary school style) if I need to ask a question. I sometimes just open a magazine and read if things are dragging out unusually long. Her style often involves question and answer sessions where she answers her own questions for me. She learned this style of (dis)conversation from her father and it is completely abusive and dysfunctional. I agree that people that talk to other ones that way are being abusive and manipulative plain and simple just like any other form of abuse would be. I never talk to anyone that way.

7

@kitten: You may be biased, or that may be your group of friends. I don’t think it’s particularly true of either gender. I hear men talking over each other and women doing the same; I also hear men waiting and women waiting.

To a certain degree, it’s a comfort zone issue. Among strangers people will be polite; among friends and family they dispense with the formality (especially when arguments get heated).

@Shag: great post!

8

Echoing: This is not a male trait. I know as many women who do this as men.
[QUOTE=Chimera]
Hell, I’ve been in the room several times where there are five women and FOUR of them are talking simultaneously. That appears to me (and to most men) like none of you give a shit what the others are saying, you just want to talk. Men talking over the top of other men is viewed as disrespectful and rude.
[/QUOTE]
This is what it was like in Italy, except the men and the women did it equally. Basically, in a social group, everybody is almost always talking, and rarely stops. But the thing is, they’re not just making noise, they’re actually communicating: they’re talking and listening simultaneously. Each participant smoothly incorporates responses to what the other person is saying into his or her own streaming monologue. I was so astonished by the phenomenon that I surreptitiously took a recording (using my digital camera’s video feature) to document it.

9

Mr. Athena is like this. Drives me nuts.

My way of dealing with it is to just realize that now is not the time to work out whatever problem we’re having. He’s got to rant and get it out of his system. He’s flat out not interested in hearing my side of it at that time. So I shut up and wait until he calms down. Sometimes this takes hours, or days, but he eventually does and we work things out.

Luckily, it only happens rarely nowadays, so it’s not that bad to deal with.

In general, he does like to have the floor and talk. He gets it from his mother, although (thank God) he’s not nearly as bad as she is. She literally can talk without a break for 20 or 30 minutes, going from one subject to the next and you can’t get a word in edgewise. Lots and lots and LOTS and lots and lots of detail.

He does the same thing on a smaller scale. In fact, I’d say it’s one of our biggest issues - he has this need to communicate all the details about his life & hobbies. As a result, I know WAY more than I should about the technical details of collimating telescopes, the ins and outs of bagpipe embellishments, the makes and models of sea kayaks, all sorts of stuff about flatpicking, fingerstyle and classical guitar, and bicycle mechanics. Most of the time I’m OK with it, but man, it does get old to hear about the same boring technical details over and over and over, and he gets hurt if he thinks I’m bored.

Man, the things we do for those we love. I’m sure I’ve got my own quirks that he has to deal with, but hey, I’m here, and he’s not, so I get to bitch :smiley:

10

[QUOTE=Athena]
He does the same thing on a smaller scale. In fact, I’d say it’s one of our biggest issues - he has this need to communicate all the details about his life & hobbies. As a result, I know WAY more than I should about the technical details of collimating telescopes, the ins and outs of bagpipe embellishments, the makes and models of sea kayaks, all sorts of stuff about flatpicking, fingerstyle and classical guitar, and bicycle mechanics. Most of the time I’m OK with it, but man, it does get old to hear about the same boring technical details over and over and over, and he gets hurt if he thinks I’m bored.
[/QUOTE]

Most wives, upon telling their husbands to Get a Hobby, either forget to tell their hubby to find friends that they can talk about this hobby with, or don’t want them to do so because it would take time away from them.

This quote is the unfortunate result.

Don’t be a victim. Let your spouse have friends they can discuss their esoteric hobbies with, so you don’t have to!

11

[QUOTE=kittenblue]
Ah, here we are getting to the heart of it…exactly what my son says…Shut up and let me finish. But if you listen to a group of women, or even two, having a discussion, even a heated one, it’s the constant give and take, jumping in to clarify or confirm, finishing each others thoughts (which shows that we understand the other person’s point, by the way, and is for the most part considered a good thing). Only rarely will you get the “listen to my lecture/rant” type thing between women.
[/QUOTE]

Er, no. I am a woman and I do this–I will get more upset if you don’t let me get it out. That said, however, I can and do what you describe as well. Perhaps I’m hermaphrodite? :cool:

12

[QUOTE=Chimera]
Most wives, upon telling their husbands to Get a Hobby, either forget to tell their hubby to find friends that they can talk about this hobby with, or don’t want them to do so because it would take time away from them.

This quote is the unfortunate result.

Don’t be a victim. Let your spouse have friends they can discuss their esoteric hobbies with, so you don’t have to!
[/QUOTE]

Dude, you’re WAY off on this one.

  1. I absolutely do NOT tell my husband to Get A Hobby. He is Hobby Boy. He has had hobbies long before I met him, and will have them regardless of my opinion on them.

  2. Hubby does what he wants. He does not ask my permission to do anything - whether it be going out with friends or getting a hobby. We like it that way; I want a husband, not a child.

  3. I’ve encouraged him on many occasions to get friends who do the same hobby as he does. Unfortunately, when you live in a small town, it’s not like there’s a huge community of people around that get into things the way he does.

  4. Neither of us like socializing all that much. He doesn’t really want to get more friends just to discuss hobbies with. We can’t keep up with our current friends as it is.

  5. regarding “taking time away from them”: Hubby and I live together, work at home together, and are currently working on a joint project. We are together 24/7. Believe me, we are looking for ways to spend time apart, not more time together.

You might be right in some cases, but this is absolutely not what’s going on with us.

13

[QUOTE=Athena]
Dude, you’re WAY off on this one.
[/QUOTE]

It was a Joke.

:rolleyes:

14

[QUOTE=Chimera]
It was a Joke.

:rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]

To be fair, I couldn’t tell it was a joke, either. Sorry.

15

Let’s take a look at your OP.

[QUOTE= kittenblue]
He says they are having a discussion, but he gets angry if she tries to participate. As much as she tries to tell him that a discussion is a conversation where two people talk in a give and take manner, he just shuts her down with the “let me finish” speech. If she tries to jump in to answer one of his concerns while words are still flowing from his mouth…even if he is just repeating the same thing he’s been saying for twenty minutes…if she dares to open her mouth before he has completely run out of steam (by then she has completely forgotten what she wanted to say…is this possibly his goal?) he gets angrier and rants on longer.
[/QUOTE]

You’ve already decided who the bad guy is here, so why are you soliciting opinions?

[QUOTE= kittenblue]
What, dear Doper men, is the problem with men? Why do we women have to sit there, arms folded, waiting until you finally, finally run out of steam before we can say a word? I asked my son, and he just laughed…said he really wasn’t interested at all in my point of view at those times, and he just wanted to rant. He knows nothing productive will come of it, but he just wants to vent and talk. He’s 23. I told him to break this habit now…
[/QUOTE]

Maybe because, before men started demanding to be heard, they got fed up with women jumping in, as if nitpicking one detail of othe point destroyed the effectiveness of the entire point, and they got tired of women waiting for the first opportunity to defuse a fight they didn’t want to have, dismiss it as trivial, and walk away from it.

And your son is just doing what women do plenty of times. If you want to shut him down on this, don’t you DARE ever start a conversation about issue A as a proxy for issue B.

[QUOTE= kittenblue]
And Doper women…if you have a man like this, who does this from time to time (this doesn’t happen in every discussion, by the way…just from time to time) how do you handle this without resorting to violence to get him to just let you get a word in to explain what he’s complaining about?
[/QUOTE]

No, you don’t explain to the other person what he’s complaining about, he explains to you what he’s complaining about. That’s why he’s complaining- because he’s sick of you telling him that he doesn’t understand his own problems.
And maybe, just maybe, it’s the old meme turned back on its head- maybe what the man is saying is not as important asthe message behind it.

I’ve heard this exact same whine from the women in my life about their male SO’s. It’s not gender.

It’s either control on the “arguer’s” end, or it’s control on the “listener’s” end. Each one wants to be the one to control and direct the conversation. To put it down as a gender thing is missing the point.

Even assuming that wanting to be allowed to finish is a “bad thing” is also wrong.

16

[QUOTE=Chimera]
It was a Joke.

:rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]

Hmmm… I couldn’t tell. Sorry!

17

[QUOTE=kittenblue]
And Doper women…if you have a man like this, who does this from time to time (this doesn’t happen in every discussion, by the way…just from time to time) how do you handle this without resorting to violence to get him to just let you get a word in to explain what he’s complaining about?
[/QUOTE]

After the upteenth time, I pulled out a notepad and pen, noted his arguments down and when he ran out of steam gave him a point by point rebuttal. When he complained I asked why I should listen to him if he wouldn’t listen to me.

18

It IS a male-female thing. It’s important to distinguish between a low-involvement conversational style and the behavior the OP describes. Conversational style is usually determined by culture and temperament – where talking over each other is expected, it’s not rude, but where taking turns is expected, jumping in is seen as aggressive.

What kittenblue describes is entirely different. Holding the floor and refusing to yield is a sign of hierarchical status-seeking that is a prime motivator in men, rarely in women. Deborah Tannen, a linguist who has written several popular books on conversational style, addresses male-female differences in “You Just Don’t Understand: Women and Men in Conversation.”

The primary thesis is that men and women have different ideas of what talk is for.

19

Never interupt a fool, always let a wise man finish what he has to say - Haida Indian saying.

My wife is the interupter. She will ask a question and then when I try to answer it, interupt me and tell me what my answer “really is”:, and then proceed to tell me why that is wrong.

We are getting divorced as of august 1st, after 10 yrs of maraige + 2 yrs of cohabitation.

I will NEVER. EVER live with anyone, or get married again.

FML

20

[QUOTE=kittenblue]
What, dear Doper men, is the problem with men? Why do we women have to sit there, arms folded, waiting until you finally, finally run out of steam before we can say a word?
[/QUOTE]

Erm… we don’t.

Not that I’m trying to minimize the problem, because I think it *is * a problem. But in my opinion, the most effective way to fix it might be to simply say “I’m not going to stand here and let you rant at me. When you want to actually resolve this, let me know.” and walk away. It’s what I’d do.