Yeah, I live 60 miles away from my parents, and my daughter is only 20 months old, so if she’s there, Me and my wife are also. Thankfully my parents are hguely supportive. Living away from family, and not wanting to use strangers as babysitters at this stage, my monthly visit to Grandma’s is the only chance I get to take my wife out. I really hope I never have a conflict on this issue with my parents, but it would have to be a full on spanking to spark that off. If she is reaching for a flame/sharp knife etc I don’t see a swatted away hand as being out of line.
Maybe I’ve met too many ‘feral’ kids – not only have they never been punished, but they’ve never been told no, never had to do anything they didn’t want to, always had ‘meaningful, fruitful conversations’ in place of stern talking-to’s, etc.
I’m of the opinion that if you’ve got a kid under two years old next to the dishwasher, and you’re constantly having to re-direct them from reaching in and grabbing things, that the parent is the problem, not the kid.
After about the 2nd time the kid reached in to get something after being told no, he needed to be relocated, and truly re-directed. Hand the kid to grandpa and send them to the living room to play or something. I don’t think the grandpa was trying to overstep your decision to avoid physical discipline, I think he was just reacting, unthinkingly, to a problem you were ignoring.
Maybe he’s having a conversation with his wife.
Grandpa: “Did you see how she tried to reason with a 2-year old? He’s not going to understand at that age!”
Grandma: “Now, dear, she’ll figure that out in time. Just let her raise her son as she likes. She’ll reap what she sows when he gets his drivers license.”
Grandpa: 
Note: I am not piling on and saying you are raising a feral child. But as a grandpa myself, I can understand well-meaning, but over-rigid (and frankly, often silly) parenting ‘rules of engagement’. Raising a kid is a process that has to be constantly refined and adapted to each kids temperment and personality. It’s not like you can adopt a set of rules and expect the kid to instinctively know them, or override the grandparents own years of experience. Your husband turned out OK, didn’t he? So his folks aren’t entirely clueless or inherently harmful to kids psyche’s.
I’d give this one a pass, and also think about what might really be behind your anger about grandpa, because it doesn’t sound like it’s just the hand slap. It sounds like you believe he’s actively trying to thwart your parenting and demean you. You should try to figure out where that belief is coming from.
Gads. On review I’m not sure I should even post this, I come across as a grumpy old man with pop psychology issues. Ah well, it is IMHO, and I guess I have one…
I have a lot of respect for parents who teach their children discipline and to respect the rules without spanking. That would be my preference.
Sometimes a hand slap or a bottom slap just says “I meant it when I said No or stop or don’t touch” I think what’s being suggested here is that realistically you have to judge the offense against the relationship with the in laws.
Perhaps reminding gramps that you’re trying to teach Jr not to hit would work out fine. Perhaps it wouldn’t. Either way make a judgment call and live with it. It’s not an ideal world and sometimes we have to relate to and be tolerant of imperfect people just as they sometimes need to be tolerant of us.
Hey **ElzaB **
I respect that you’re teaching your child not to hit. What are your thoughts on self defense later on?
I remember my son at around 7 or 8 had a playmate who would get pissy and hit. I told him he could just not play with him. He said he liked him and didn’t want to lose a playmate. He just didn’t like the hitting. I told him he shouldn’t let himself be hit and that he could hit back. I told him if his “friend” realized he would defend himself he would probably stop. That’s what happened. One punch in the stomach and they remained friends and the hitting stopped. David had his self respect and his friend.
Oddly enough a similar thing happened to me at around his age. A neighbor playmate would lose his temper and hit or throw things hard. I asked him to stop but it would eventually happen again. One day I lost my temper and we thrashed it out. No more hitting after that.
I’m very non violent myself but in the world we live in it isn’t always realistic. Of course there’s a difference between hitting as a way of expressing anger and frustration and hitting as self defense. I was just curious how Mom’s who taught “no hitting” felt about it.
There is a reason that minor punishments are called a “slap on the wrist.” Would you have been as upset if it was with a wet noodle too?
There is the “hand slap”, which is really a spank. We’re into not spanking, but when the youngest twin started on the hair pulling thing with the oldest twin, we started on the hand slap as a spank. And have only done it maybe 1/2 dozen times. Each time I’m sure the shock of the hand spank was much worse than the sting.
Then there’s the “hand slap”, which is I dunno what to call it but an instinctive little smack to get attention. Cheeerisst, I do that with grown ups every once in a while. Ya know, a cow-orker walks over to your cubicle and instinctively starts playing with something and you kinda instinctively do a little attention getting pop on the back of the hand. Works wonders.
I think there is a huge difference for a toddler between the two scenarios above. did gramps do the “hand spank” or the “attention slap”?
Is this a whoosh? Or do you actually smack your co-workers for fiddling with objects on your desk? I would not be okay with one of my co-workers giving me an “attention getting pop”. I am a grownup, and therefore you can get my attention by using actual words.
As for cosmosdan’s question, my 6-year-old has been instructed not to hit other kids, pretty much no matter what. I think that in kindergarten, this is appropriate, as I do not want my kid getting involved in fistfights on the kindergarten bus or whatnot. We may revise this strategy as he gets older, if it seems necessary. I’ve learned from experience that it’s tempting fate to make pronouncements about what you definitely will or will not do with your child before you’ve been in a particular situation. (Says the mother who once confidently proclaimed that her children would NEVER eat McDonald’s food. Pause for big laffs.)
I agree with this too, however it may be a bit early for Elza B’s kid to learn when is a good time to fight back. But yes, when he’s older he should definitely be taught to defend himself when necessary.
I like your distinction there, and that’s what I follow: hitting to express anger and frustration is Not Allowed, hitting as self defense or in response to a campaign of harassment is, as long as you’ve tried Using Your Words, Ignoring the Behavior and Getting a Grownup first.
At 21 months yet (not even 2 years old, and yes, 3 months does make a developmental difference, so those calling him “a 2 year old” are attributing greater skills to the child than he probably has - many 21 month olds don’t have a single real word yet, for instance), my rule would be a simple “no hitting.” Hitting at that age IS about expressing anger and frustration, and the kid needs to find other ways of dealing with his frustration. Using a sound like “Ahhhhhh!” works well if they can’t talk yet, and reinforces that frustration and anger are expressed with our voices, not our hands. When they can talk, of course, they should use words to express their feelings and try to bargain for what they want.
Self-defense should be taught when it comes up, which will be a different age for every kid, but I usually see it needed around age 6 or 7. (Before that, “just walk away” is the best way to handle it.) Once you know the victim and the aggressor are of a developmental age to grok that unprovoked violence is not okay, then you can teach strategies that include violence as part of a system without creating confusion as to why hitting is okay sometimes.
Since everything else has been pretty much covered (though I really think you should consider as a possibility just letting it go ;)) I have only this left to say:
I think I would probably deal withthis by telling grandpa and grandma at some future babysitting engagement that you are trying a new thing which seems to be working and that is to grasp and hold the child’s hand when he reaches for something he shouldn’t or hits. Works great and you would like them to try it because if everybody does the same thing the message gets through to kid faster. Really curious how it might work.
Or something like that. Telling people what you want them to do beats all hell out of telling them not to do something.
No, I’m not a middle child or anything, why do you ask?
I’ve been reading this thread with intense curiosity and I have to say, I think this is an EXCELLENT solution. In most situations, it’s better to provide alternatives instead of say, “Never do that again.” You know, kind of like dealing with a toddler (“You can’t have a cookie, but you can have a banana.”). If you frame things positively, you’re much more likely to get an interested, engaged reaction than if you tell people not to do things, which in adults usually results in thoughts of, “I know what I’m doing - stop trying to tell me how to go about my day.”
With respect to the OP (and it sounds like this has been long resolved), it doesn’t sound like Gramps meant anything by it. While I probably wouldn’t have done it, either (I would have grabbed his hand and made him face me, then redirected), I can understand the inclination if you’re having a visceral reaction to a child getting too close to something dangerous.
For whatever it’s worth, I have a couple of acquaintances who would regularly shout at their little boy and slap his hand for any infraction, regardless of how minor. He was about two at the time as well. It always struck me as excessive. The shouting is particularly ineffective - yelling as opposed to speaking doesn’t make him process the information any better. It usually has the opposite effect - he just stops listening. And slapping his hand constantly just makes him scream in outrage, making the problem worse, not better. If we have occasion to visit them (we run in the same circle of friends and are sometimes invited to their house), we keep a sharp eye on our son. I’m okay with my son being expected to follow house rules, but my husband and I would rather their particular rules not be enforced the way they typically enforce them. So we take on that job ourselves.
If I slap someone’s hand at work, I can be charged with assault. :eek: And no one at work better slap my hand as well. You cannot touch a patient without permission granted by the pt. Casual handslaps are just not done in my workplace–handslaps aren’t done, period.
I like how you handled the friend who hit, cosmodan and I probably would have handled it in the same way. We’ve never had to deal with a hitting friend. We did have a kid over here who stole stuff, but never a hitter.
There’s an older kid (5th grade) on my son’s soccer team who seems to bully the younger kids (3rd and 4th). I was thinking he was a real jerk, and not sure how to handle this (because he is the coach’s son) when I talked to another mom at the game on Saturday. Turns out, this kid is a special needs kid. This mom teaches special ed (but not this kid). I said how I had thought he was just an immature jerk and she said something that made me laugh: “just because you’re in special ed, doesn’t mean you’re not a jerk.” Hee. I have told my son to tell the coach if this kid starts to bother him unduly. I’d do the same for any special ed kid. If this was just a jerky 5th grader and not the coach’s son, I’m not sure what I’d do. Tell him to stay away from him or have him tell Jerk to leave him alone, loudly enough for the coach to hear. (it’s hard to do this abstractly, actually–who knows what I’d really say. I do know I wouldn’t counsel him to go in fist first. The Husband was taught to not start fights, but to fight back if needed. That makes sense to me).
Sorry, seemed to have strayed far from Gramps.
Sorry - I’ve been up since 3 AM and on and off planes and in a very long job interview today and haven’t been able to get back here until now.
We’ve been trying that, too. The dishwasher thing - I think sometimes it’s confusing because he’s able to ‘help’ with certain things (like his grandmother will give him a spoon to put in it, or I will ask him to put something in the refrigerator, which he does, very helpfully), so we need to be a bit better about getting him to understand that ‘a no is a no’. And believe me, he gets told ‘no’ a lot.
Honestly, I’m not sure how we’ll deal with it just yet. I’ll admit, there’s a kid at daycare who is in my son’s class, but is bigger and older, and he likes to roughly touch my son when we arrive (ie, hair-pulling, hugging him so hard that it hurts, and occasionally, he will hit), and my first instinct is to want him to fight back - but these kids are 1 1/2 years old and 2 1/2 years old, so it’s not like they’re being rational to begin with. So I’m not sure.
But on the other hand, I do think defending himself at age 7 or 8 or an age where he’s able to understand that it’s self-defense and not just ‘hitting back’ IS different. Let’s put it this way - I would prefer that it never be an issue, but I’m sure it will be. And when and if it is, I’d hope he’d try a non-violent response first, but if that doesn’t work and it IS a matter of self-defense, I don’t think I’d have a problem with it. I think your situation is a good example of when I’d be okay with it.
I’m with MsWhatsit. My kids, my rules when it comes to corporal punishment, in any locale. There are far too many different ways to discipline a child that do not include hitting or smacking. He’s 21 months for fuck’s sake. It wasn’t a knife but a messy BBQ brush in the same area that he was ‘helping’ with. Yes, he was told no, but he’s 21 months old and his curosity got the better of him. Maybe it reminded him of the brushes I’m sure encounters at daycare.
I don’t think Gramps meant to hurt him, I think he did it on reflex. First time’s a pass - don’t say anything, just let it ride. If it happen again, Gramps gets a reminder.
This time it was a brush. Maybe Grampa thought about how often Jr might have found knives in there instead and decided to teach him not to play in the dishwasher this time, before he needed stitches. I’m not a fan of hitting, but nipping in the bud a new desire to play with something usually filled with sharp objects doesn’t seem as bad to me as letting him play this time and getting the idea that it’s okay to grab things out when they catch his eye.
So discipline a child for what *could * happen? How does that teach them anyting other than to be gun shy?
Has anyone ever handled the metal (steel?) bristles on a BBQ brush? That’s not a what-could issue; it’s the bad thing itself.
I read BBQ brush as one of the stiff white brushes you use to paint BBQ sauce on, not the metal grill cleaning brush. OP also said it was “nothing dangerous.”
I will have to say I’ve never put the metal cleaning brush in a dishwasher.
Seriously?
A child COULD get hit by a car when crossing the street unattended. If a 2 year old ran out in the road with no cars coming, wouldn’t you want to correct them for doing something that COULD happen to them if they did that again?
Obviously thousands of examples could be given to prove the same point.
Also, it’s not a good idea to let a small child handle things in the dishwasher. They don’t have the ability that we do to determine if the dishes are clean and cooled off, or fresh from the drying process and are still very, very hot.
When I made the decision never to smack my child it wasn’t exactly an original decision, my parents never smacked me (my mother did a great act that involved waving a wooden spoon around…but only wooden spoons were harmed).
My child is 16 now, other then one slapped hand (a hand about to go under a hot tap at about 2) there has been no smacking in our home. I’m curious as to why anyone would ask about self defence. I’m 41 and have never had the need to defend myself in a physical way (I’m all mouth!), my child (who is a self proclaimed geek, he and his friends call themselves the ‘Nerd Herd’’) also has never had to defend himself in any physical way.
I fully understand that at anytime some maladjusted wanker may spring out of the undergrowth and attack either me or my child but I know that even if I had smacked my child that could still happen.
I just know that by not smacking my child he learned that words can be as powerful as any smack, I am mother hear me ROAR . He learnt that is how society works…someday a boss might tell him off but they won’t threaten to hit him.
Smacking is as sensible as the death penalty. If smacking worked children would see one other child smacked and never misbehave again.