I can construct some situations where the use of torture could be justified (the usual “there’s a nuclear bomb concealed somewhere, and only him knows where it is”) . And I’ve a very clear opinion about this. If you think you’re in such a situation, then go for it. But go for it knowing that you’re committing a crime and that that no law or even “we’ll look the other way” guarantee will protect you from the consequences of your decision.
If the need to have recourse to torture isn’t worth standing a trial, isn’t worth spending years upon years in jail, then we can safely assume that the issue at stakes isn’t vital enough, in your own opinion.
Besides, if using torture on an Iraki terrorist is good enough if it can save some american soldiers, then torturing an american occupier is good enough if it can save some Iraki freedom fighters too. Don’t complain if it happens (I’m adressing the like of Roseworm, here). They just are in agreement with you. They share your values.
I don’t share these values. And fortunately, the overwhelming majority of posters on this board don’t, either. You belong to the other side. You’re one of these hate-sowers, of these ennemies of freedom we have a duty to fight. You don’t stand with us against the likes of Bin Laden, you stand with the likes of Bin Laden against us. You used machetes in Rwanda, electricity in Chile, rape in Bosnia, starvation in Cambodia, Zyklon B in Germany. Do you remember when you did?
And many, many muslims (even amongst the moderates) hate the Saudis, and view them as the lackeys of the USA (amongst other things). It wouldn’t change a thing.
I think this whole notion of “saving” others by utilizing information gained from torture is a bit silly. Look at Abu Ghraib, we tortured them to either get info, or to set an example to all to give up info. In the short run it provided some intel (did it even?), but in the long run we have hundreds of really angry prisoners who will now do anything to take us out. They’ll call for jihad, they’ll spread hatred, etc, etc.
Torture isn’t as effective as we’d like to believe.
You know, I agree, but I think what you’ve missed here is that nobody in this thread (that I’ve seen) has advocated torture as a general policy. It’s either been in contrived, almost unbelievable circumstances (Where’s the nuke you set to blow, you bastard) or as revenge on one individual responsible for an extrodinarily heinous act. In spite of the hand wringing of those opposed unconditionally, nobody has advocated torture as an OK, everyday thing. I actually thought Clairobscur was dead on when he said
I would torture the terrorist for the location of the bomb, and then expect to be held accountable for it if we survived. OBL I’d rather marginalize rotting in a dusty jail cell or executed by an Islamic court, no matter how tempting the vision of grabbing him by his beard, cutting off his balls and crucifying him before burying him beneath a pig sty with a slice of ham in his mouth is.
:: SA starts plucking straws from his broom and lubing up a set of pliers ::
Kidding, kidding…you know I kid.
Actually I’m a guy who saves bugs and takes 'em outside rather than kill them. I’ve even been known to set June bugs back on their feet…but the dummies invariably just buzz around a little and wind up on their backs again.
At which point you become just as much of an inhuman bastard as them, whether you care to believe it or not
You weaselled out of my question above: I do not care how or why; what do you do when the broom straw is up your wife or child’s nose at the hands of the government?
Well, if you’ll pardon me, I do indeed believe no such thing! I believe that if I were to murder three thousand innocent mothers and fathers going about their daily business, or kidnap, rape and murder a small child, then I would as much of an inhuman bastard as them.
The notion that giving them as good as they give makes us no better than them is a fallacious one. One might as well say that the police officer who shoots and kills a murderer is no better than the murderer himself.
Well, pardon me, but I weaselled out of nothing. The question was poorly phrased and the scenarios highly unlikely. I didn’t want to have to take the time to straighten it out.
But the short answer consists of two parts:
One, I never advocated “government sponsored” torture, nor torture at the will and discretion of whichever law enfordcement agency was involved. I proposed that if it were to be used it would only be after a determination had been made by a judge that the evidence justified its application. In each of the scenarios you presented, a preliminary investigation would quickly reveal that the family members in question had nothing to do with the crimes.
In the case of the son who actually did kidnap a child, he better cough up the information or suffer the consequences. It’s up to courts and law enforcement agencies to determine and enforce who is entitled to custody of a child. If the child is being abused, legal efforts should be undertaken to get him or her out of that situation. We can’t have a society where people are free to kidnap their children from a custodial parent simply on the say-so of the kidnapping parent that abuse is occuring.
Secondly, assuming that due diligence hadn’t been followed and it was wrongfully applied to a family member, I would try to punish the people and/or agency responsible by whatever the law would allow. Just like we do now if someone is wrongfully arrested or beaten while in custody or denied medicine or needed medical treatment, I would sue for criminal malfeasance if applicable, and for punitive monetary damages to the extent the law allows.
…and in walks a clown with a venomous look on his face. He pulls down Spooje’s pants and hits spooge in the genitals with a cream pie, while all of spooje’s friends, family and particularly Josh Johnson, the 2nd grade bully who made spooje’s life a living hell, stand by and watch and laugh.
However, spooje, who has discovered the secret of male enhancement and is now the envy of even the aforementioned Ron Jeremy, merely sits with a smug smile on his face while everyone slowly begins to look at him in awe.
Now that would be a secret worth torturing out of someone…
Hey, spooje, c’mere.
:: SA chases spooje around the room with straw and pliers ::
And that’s really one of the most key points. Any time we torture them, we are making it legitimate for them to torture us. We are giving them permission to torture American POWs. We are saying that torture is now inbounds. Please torture those pilots you shot down yesterday. You can’t just decide that Americans have some authority that the enemy doesn’t have. Whatever we say it’s ok for us to do, we are also saying it’s ok for them to do.
“There’s a reason why we sign these treaties. To protect my son in the military. That’s why we have these treaties, so when Americans are captured, they are not tortured.”
-Sen. Joe Biden