What a load of cock. Neoconservatives are frequently self-described as such, have a recognisable political philosophy unrelated to faith or ethnicity, and include such notable “Jews” as Francis Fukuyama. Could you please explain to me why a Japanese-American would need a secret way to out himself as a Jew?
Form an orderly queue (me first).
SentientMeat that was fucking brilliant.
A common objection on this thread is that we should be “above” treating our enemies cruelly (even if those enemies have sworn to kill us all). spooje has suggested that torture is always an evil thing. Certainly it is always an ugly thing - I will not deny that. But let me pose a little scenario for you:
Terrorists in your home city have set an infernal device which will kill about 6000 people (911 x 2), including all your friends and family. One of the terrorists has fallen into your hands. For the sake of the argument, let us say that you have no way of enlisting the aid of the authorities. So the burden is entirely upon your shoulders. You can save 6000 people if you get the necessary information from the terrorist. And he ain’t talkin’. Will you torture him? I tend to think you will, and in every brutal way you can imagine. If not - if your principles are more important to you than the lives of 6000 people (or any number) - please contact me and I will be happy to do the dirty work for you.
Others have suggested (somewhat melodramatically) that by hating our enemies I am “embracing the dark side.” So be it. If I lose my soul in the struggle ahead, that is my loss and my loss alone. I will gladly make that sacrifice if it will keep others alive with their souls intact.
The point is, someone has to do the dirty work for the sake of others. As George Orwell noted:
“Men sleep peacefully in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.”
Why should we sleep in fear of terrorists? Let them tremble in their caves and bunkers, waiting for the knife in the night or the blockbuster bomb from on high.
What is the point of taking the moral high ground against the terrorists? They simply don’t care. If you say to a terrorist, “I have taken the moral high ground; I am a better person than you are because I refuse to sink to your level.” The terrorist will probably respond with something like: “Fine. Whatever. Just hold still while I cut your throat. There. Now you are not only better than I am - you are dead, too. Have a nice day.”
Finally, I would like to thank **Shrinking Violet ** for coming to my defense. I might not go so far as to suggest that terrorists are no human. But one thing is indisputable - by becoming terrorists whose stated purpose is to kill innocents whenever and wherever they can, they have utterly rejected humanity. They have made mad dogs of themselves. And by doing so, they have broken all social contracts which entitle them to legal protection. To say they are not human is, however, a neat and pithy way of summing up that idea.
Actually, 911x2 is 1822, not 6000.
Egads, how did I miss this post before?
This kind of hysterical, disingenuous race card playing is not much respected around here, “guest.” It’s also a sure sign that you’re getting your ass kicked in a thread.
It’s true: there’s no rhyme nor reason to the method by which someone becomes a terrorist.
People do not say, “Look at the evils committed by America! There is no other way to fight them except to become terrorists!”
No. They are sipping their coffee and eating kebobs, when suddenly they think, “You know, I should become a heartless, inhuman terrorist, and blow people up. That’d be fun.”
So nothing we do to demonstrate our own civility, our own goodness, our own righteousness, will have the least effect over terrorist recruitment efforts.
Daniel
Torture is an ineffective method of gaining information and your scenario is wildly implausible anyway.
And you are now changing the argument. Your OP invited torture fantasies as punishment, not as a means to prevent some contrived, asinine crisis designed purely to provide a justification for torture. Torturing OBL would not save any human lives so your dumbass fantasy crisis is not applicible to the conversation.
And no, I would not use torture. It doesn’t work. There are much more effective ways to get information.
**Diogenes the Cynic ** has pointed out that my last post changes the point of the OP. To that, I plead guilty. I was merely trying to address an ethical point which has been frequently raised against the OP.
However, Diogenes has stated that he would not use torture in the scenario I posed - that there are more effective ways of getting information. That is easy to say, sir. What are those more effective ways? Please enlighten us.
The only acceptable and recommended course of action in the hypothetical city-bomb scenario is to hypothetically summon the hypothetical giant squid lords of the deep; they can deactivate the device with their hypothetical infra-thought rays.
Since we’re just making stuff up, then let’s say for the sake of the argument that I have the power to read minds. Problem solved. :rolleyes:
No, they will be stopped at the lighthouses for need of payment.
“Somebody’s gotta go back an’ get a shitload o’ dimes!”
You know, being a sighted person, I actually know what “red” is. But for some reason I didn’t “see” red when reading this description. So while red was described rather factually the experience was lacking.
Not sure what that says about my soul.
So what? If I describe a hotdog, do you have to wipe mustard off your shirt?
You could always make him read your posts. After about 4 or 5, I’m willing to do almost anything to get you to shut up.
Nice shot, Weirddave. I am new to these message boards and am unfamiliar with the personalities of the regular Dopers. It is tough learning to dogfight on the fly, as it were.
Tough learning not to shoot your fool mouth off, huh?
A word of advice, then: before describing your hideous torture fantasies, why not read the boards for a bit and learn about what’s considered acceptable behavior? Why not start posting in IMHO, Great Debates, MPSIMS, Cafe Society before coming right to the forum where dopers work out their anger?
If you come straight into the party letting out a drunken screed, don’t be surprised if people call you on your shit.
Daniel
I believe that Roseworm did try to start out in another forum and it got kicked here.
So he didn’t come into the mosh pit flailing and spitting, he charged straight into the lecture hall. Charming.
Daniel
I’ve said it before.
I’ll say it again.
Stir fry.
And Bosda wins it in a wok!
Daniel