I did in fact start this post on the general board. To Lefthand of Dorkness: There is nothing unreasonable in my suggestion that the man who is responsible for killing 3000 of our fellow citizens (in a very horrific manner) deserves a special punishment. If you review the OP, you will see that my initial two suggestions are simple, straightforward and not particularly sadistic.
As for others “calling me on my sh*t”, I understand that the tenor of discourse in the BBQ Pit tends to be a bit more on the rough’n’tumble side. Nevertheless, if you review my posts, you will see that at all times I attempted to coach my arguments in reasoned terms, that I attempted to treat everyone with civility, and that I avoided *ad hominem * attacks - this in spite of some rather nasty cracks.
Nothing unreasonable, sure–nor is there anything reasonable about it. There is something unethical about it, and maybe you should look into that pesky Bill of Rights, specifically the eighth amendment.
Not particularly sadistic, huh? Well, that’s okay then–I’ve got no problem with our civilization being just moderately sadistic. What’s the fun of being the world’s deadliest country if you can’t engage in a little bit of torture here and there? Not like it’s going to create more enemies for us or anything; as we know, terrorists are bred in vats in Al Qaeda laboratories, not recruited from the throngs of people aghast at our behavior in the world, so nothing we do can possibly have any effect on whether there are more or fewer terrorists in the world.
I’d have him tracked down in one of those caves, and simply put a bullet in his head, then I’d have the entire cave blown up and collapsed on the body so that he’ll never be a martyr. I’d do it with the same emotion as a veterinarian putting down a rabid dog.
Oh, I see. We are back to the hoariest of all liberal canards: America is bad. America is evil. America is responsible for everything that is wrong in the world, and we deserve whatever horrible things the terrorists do to us. Is that your argument? Well, I call bullshit on you, Lefthand.
America is a good country. Americans are good people. And I am sick and tired of hearing otherwise. Because I get it from all directions. If I open a liberal newspaper, or read a liberal magazine, or turn on a liberal TV news show, it is always the same thing - “Good morning, folks, it’s another shitty day in America.” I am plain sick of it. If America is so rotten, why are so many people from so many different countries trying to come and live here?
I am disgusted by people like Michael Moore, who makes a handsome living by going around the world encouraging people to hate Americans.
How big a step is it from hating Americans to killing Americans?
The problem with you, Lefthand, is that you completely misunderstand our enemies. They do not hate us because of anything we have said or done. They want to destroy us because we are an obstacle to their grand purpose - the establishment of a worldwide caliphate. They want to turn the clock back 500 years.
You are probably a decent person, Lefthand, but you really ought to take Michael Moore’s dick out of your mouth once in a while.
There. You made me angry. I hope you are satisfied.
Their purpose is to establish a worldwide caliphate, like we had 500 years ago? Huh?
No. The purpose of the leaders is to establish a brutal theocracy, sure. But the purpose of their followers is to find some way to regain face, given the humiliation they perceive that the Western world inflicts on them.
This isn’t some “Hate America” ideology: this is recognition of the facts, this is being practical, this is not living in an ivory tower or a crazed nutjob fortress of denial.
This is a war of blood, yes, but the theocrats (er, the Wahabbi theocrats, I should specify) get their recruits through propaganda. And every time we torture prisoners, we create propaganda for them. And every time we treat our prisoners in an ethical, civilized fashion, we rob them of a propaganda moment.
Now, a bloody stupid git might not care about ethics, might not care about the Constitution, might not care about human rights. But even a bloody stupid git ought to be concerned about winning the war of ideas. And you don’t win that war of ideas by giving the enemy martyrs, when you have the option of giving the enemy prisoners in stripey pajamas.
Well actually,if I had never experienced a hotdog before, Yes.
If a person really has no understanding of someting and you describe it, your description will fall short of giving that person a full understanding.
Its like trying to describe irrational jealousy to a person who has never been jealous.
They may have a clue based on their on past experience of anger but logic keeps them from really understanding jealous rage.
Oh, and since I’ve somewhat hijacked the thread, put me down as one of those people who want to see OBL softpedalled through a legal process and then locked up. The process should be as much of a non-event as possible.
Torture and/or death won’t heal anything. But discrediting his motives, philosophy, and cause would be the ultimate triumph over him and his kind.
And yet you have no rebuttals to any of them. That unpleasant feeling you get from reading my posts? It’s called cognitive dissonance. The truth doesn’t jibe with the voices in your head.
Roseworm, to answer your question about more effective measures than torture, it has been shown that bribery works much better and gets more accurate results. Torture is an extremely unreliable means of acquiring information.
You haven’t said anything worth rebutting in months. You’ve been in Joseph Gobbles spittle-spewing propaganda mode since mid-summer. Your response to anything is not to deal with the issue at hand, but to reply that it doesn’t matter because the Republicans are worse than Satan. If Kerry was caught sodomizing the corpse of a donkey, you’d be posting about how it shows how much he “loves” animals. With the exception of religion posts (where you are very knowledgeable and articulate, and one of my favorite posters to read), I have no idea what cool, logical points you think you’re making, because from the outside you sound like a lobotomized Michael Moore on angel dust.
I agree with you that bribery can be very effective. However, it is unlikely to work on a hardened terrorist. After all, the nineteen 911 hijackers lived among us for months, enjoying our hospitality and our way of life and, especially, our material comforts. No one of them apparently had second thoughts about the mission. My point is that bribery is unlikely to work on a terrorist who puts ideology ahead of material comforts or even his own well-being. No, it would come down to torture.
Now, I may have given some on this thread the impression that I am some bloodthirsty fiend, eager to tear the flesh and break the bones of our enemies. Not so. The primary purpose of torture is to gain information - hopefully with as little physical damage as possible. After all, if you get carried away, the SOB might bleed to death or otherwise die on you before divulging any information. And if he is a real hardass, that is what he is hoping for. So I would eschew thumbscrews and all such crude devices.
There is a simple technique which I will share with you, for the edification of all.
All you need is a simple broom straw. You insert the straw into your subject’s ears and stimulate his eardrums. And you poke the straw up his nose and tickle his sinus cavities. That is all you do. The actual physical damage done is nil, but the pain is* indescribable*. And there is no possiblity of accidentally killing your subject. Once he realizes that you are prepared to keep it up indefinitely and that he has no hope of dying accidentally, he will quickly become cooperative.
If you are unconvinced, try sticking up a broom straw up your own nose. I guarantee you that your neighbors five blocks away will be jolted awake from a sound sleep, wondering what shocking thing has happened to you.
I realize that this is an unorthodox request, and that the chances that you will grant it are pretty much nil, but I feel a need to try anyway.
Would you please consider deleting post #13 to this thread? Being in the same thread as Roseworm is making me feel dirty.
Oh, and since MMI’s contribution in post #36 references my suggestion, it would be necessary to remove that one, too.
For the record, I have no expectation that the request will be granted, nor did I intend that it be taken as a serious request. Had I intended it seriously, I would have used the “Report This Post” function.
Call me on it all you like, Left Hand. I make no apologizes for hating our enemies. You think my technique is despicable? Suppose a Beslan-style school massacre happened in America. What do you think would happen to a terrorist who fell into the hands of an outraged mother? He would probably get his eyeballs bitten out, just for starters. And if another major terrorist attack does hit this country, there is not going to be a lot of patience for wimpy, defeatist, we-must-hold-the-high-ground positions like yours.
Stupid bloody git, I’m not calling you on that. I’m calling you on giving aid and comfort to our enemies. What, you think they’re afraid of a little torture?
Fuck no. What they’re afraid of is having their movement wither on the vine. But no, you’re willing to do the bloody stwo-step with them, fertilize their movement with their own blood, keep their movement strong.
