I am about to lose a long-time friend over Trump

Politics & Elections
41

While I understand the idea of remaining on friendly terms to have a chance to convince them to come back from the dark side, I don’t understand the arguments that are based on the person still somehow being a decent person who you whose friendship you want to preserve.

Both of those are gone. Someone who can be led to cross certain moral lines was not decent to begin with. There’s some aspect where outside pressure can push you against your own believes for a bit before you realize it, but. if you have the strong moral principles required to be a good person, you can’t be pushed too far.

Plus they are actively the ones trying to end the friendship with their remarks. Unless and until they apologize, they’ve indicated they no longer want to be friends. Unless they apologize and prove they are genuinely sorry, there’s no reason they won’t lash out at you again–not just because they did so, but because of the previous paragraph. Morality is part of the trust required in friendship as well–to trust they won’t intentionally hurt you.

There are all these people who talk about using guns to attack liberals–so why should I feel safe around them? We’ve now seen what they can be led to do. If someone can’t at least bring themselves to be against Trump for trying to violently overthrow our government, how can I trust them not to be violent towards me?

This is why Trump has torn us all apart. Before we could differ politically and still have what is necessary for friendship. But it’s becoming increasingly hard.

Given how he was treated, I can’t see any problem with the OP not wanting to remain friends. The logic for maintaining friendliness as it might make them easy to reach is valid, bu that’s a reason to remain “friends” even though you don’t want to, not an issue with not wanting to be friends.

Friends are people you can trust. This person has betrayed that trust in a very big way. She made it pretty clear she doesn’t want to remain friends with someone who says the things the OP said.

That’s the relevance of “true colors”–not exactly a dog whistle, but clearly an indication that she thinks you’re a horrible person for daring to be against Trump.

42

I’ve been pretty quiet on FB during these Trump years. I’ve seldom replied to the Pro Trump posts because I celebrate holidays with a lot of these folks, but I too have been less quiet in the last few days.

I’m seeing new video every day that makes it clear how close they got.

I like to point out to them that I was devastated when Trump won in 2016 and actually cried for the first time in my life at an election result, but I never would have been ok with Clinton inciting an insurrection.

It will be up to them to unfriend me or whatever, but I’m done being quite about it.

43

Steve Hassan’s take is that they (Trumpists) resemble cult members in the sense that they’ve been brainwashed. Since this leads to a specific kind of crazy, which involves a seriously diminished capacity for critical thinking, it’s best to regard what they’re saying in the same way you would regard someone who is suffering from a more individual delusion, e.g a psychotic disorder. Which doesn’t mean you shouldn’t call them out when they’re insulting or threatening you, but their ideas and opinions are not really altered by reality so it’s really not much use discussing the content of their belief. That will probably only lead to arguments.
Plus their own personalities have been pushed aside for a newly constructed group mentality. It really is quite serious. Hassan talks at length about this in his books, also about his own experience with falling under the spell of Sun Myung Moon. As a psychiatrist I’ve learned a lot from this man about how undue influence works, and that it is a dangerous tool, wielded frighteningly succesfully by Trump and the media who do his bidding.

44

Never talking to some of them again would be tragic, sad, and potentially necessary—but one really important fact we can never forget: they vote. So if you’re not friends with them, you forfeit any influence to keep DJT from being re-elected. I’m glad he was voted out but it was hardly the slam dunk result I’d hope for, the USA saying "Hell no!. Maybe four years from now he’ll run again. Four more years of the irate toddler? THAT would be really tragic.

It’s hard to believe it came to this, isn’t it? It seems like with the internet and all the TV channels we’d have more information than ever and this bullshit couldn’t go on. But AFAICT these sites aren’t being held to any standard of truth.

Remember when celebs would take on a tabloid like the National Enquirer? Even if they won it would take awhile, going through legal machinations, and they might be on another tabloid’s front page the following week, anyway. So I would expect a big slice of the pie representing websites shows they’re lying and nobody’s taking them to task. I notice Trump was trying to force congress to stay hands off with social media…what a surprise.

The algorithms have taken our loved ones down a path of misinformation, disinformation, lies, half-truths and so on to a point where they think they’re getting the real story. They believe they’re “true patriots” or “doing God’s work” or whatever, making it ok to break rules.

IANA religious person but what I notice is that a lot of religious folks can’t defend their beliefs very well. And as soon as you start pointing out some inconsistencies, they run to the conclusion that you’re the devil, trying to dissuade them from what they know to be true So this is especially difficult.

Perhaps President Biden’s administration will come up with a solution. Better make it multi-pronged…

For anybody who hasn’t read it, the Atlantic had a really excellent article before the election.

45

This. Textbook How to Engage with a fellow human who’s delusional. Well done and good luck with your friend and his brother.

46

Interesting, that again connects what I got from Steve Hassan (just an interview, not much) with dealing with someone in a psychotic episode.

Would you agree with: don’t push your message/don’t agree with them - as a strategy for both?

47

Yes I definitely would. That and patience. You’re not going to convince them in a single conversation. More useful to have a bunch of people have the same sort of conversation over a period of time. That way the contrary world view doesn’t come from one person but from a bunch of people who seem nice and reasonable. The chances to instill doubt are better with multiple sources. Still, success is not guaranteed and it can be a long proces.

48

I don’t really see how this changes my point. You want to frame it as their old personality still existing in them somewhere? Fine. But it doesn’t make them any more trustworthy now, or even then. The trust you put in them not to become like this was misplaced. And this is a trust required for friendship to continue.

The contents do matter, because the contents of their current beliefs are about hurting others. They just attacked the OP. Unless they apologize, they’ve just said they think it’s right to treat their friend like dirt. Someone who wants to hurt you cannot be your friend. Those are opposite goals.

I also question how strong one’s morals are if they can be completely subverted. I get how a cult can prey on those going through hard emotional times, offering them respite. I get how they can be emotionally pushed to go somewhat further than intended. I get how they might reluctantly go along with things because they have nowhere else to turn.

But I do also 100% support the prosecution of NVXIM that went too far, same as I don’t think “just following orders” makes Nazis not guilty. So it’s not like being part of a cult makes the guilt go away or makes you less dangerous.

Again, tactically remaining friends to retain some influence makes sense. That is the emotional aspect. But holding on to a friendship that doesn’t currently exist, hoping they’ll eventually come back to their senses? That sounds to me like the way abuse victims respond.

49

Oh thanks, simul-posting oops!

My friend’s brother is a terribly sad case. A sweet, intelligent person, trapped in his mind. Showed up on our doorstep in the middle of the first lockdown, asking to come in because “they were after him.” Thankfully, I’d been briefed over the years so had an idea of what to do. Devastating :frowning:

And now perhaps useful experience in dealing with delusional people. Life is pretty strange.

50

First of all I don’t think we disagree that much.
You’ve got a number of good points. And I agree that their beliefs don’t absolve them from responsibility for the consequences when they act upon those beliefs and cause harm. I think there are different levels of involvement/impairment in this situation. In mass movements like these there are core believers, opportunistic hangers-on and people who are used to believing/adhering to what their friends and families believe.
But in essence complete belief in an alternate reality, with no possibility to influence those beliefs with factual information, does resemble serious mental illness. The same can be said of people adhering to the conspiracy theories regarding the pandemic, which are unfortunately spreading in my neck of the woods as well.
I realize I’m a relative outsider because I don’t live in the US, I’m from the Netherlands. Which does mean we also have our fair share of dealing with far-right authoritarians, and in the past certainly have been guilty of looking the other way when e.g Jews were being deported. I’ve done a lot of reading on mass movements, destructive cults and forms of psychology that deal with groups instead of individuals. Which means I’m truly worried for you guys, because there are striking similarities between what is happening in your country and what has happened in Europe in the 20th century. Apart from Hitler Germany the virulent nationalism and White Supremacism on display looks chillingly like Serbia in the late 1980s. Those people were fed lies as well. Throughout the years I have spoken to a number of people who have fled the ensuing war in Yugoslavia, and they didn’t see it coming, either.

When it comes to friends maybe no contact is an option. With relatives this becomes more difficult. Given how many of your fellow countrymen seem to adhere to Trump and his ilk, I think a lot of people are experiencing these issues.
I wish you all the best of luck and a lot of wisdom. God knows you’ll need it. In Europe it took a hundred million+ deaths to get this Beast back into its cage, and we’re not out of the woods either when you look at e.g Poland and Hungary. Democracy is not a given, it needs to be actively preserved.

51

All the best. It’s truly heart-wrenching to watch a person fall into the pit of psychosis. Very often they are intelligent, sensitive people.

52

One thing I noticed in the OP’s exchange – OP posts in outrage, in anger. Friend rather than try and help him with that, responds coldly “you have shown your hate-filled true colors”.

These people have been over the years insulfated with the notion that our position is what is “hate”. Same way as they’ve become convinced that policies to address racial disparities are the “real” racism. To then as long as they are saying “I pray for God ro bless you” while they help opress us or deny our equality, then that is not hate.

And that we have no right to be angry, hell, we have nothing to be angry about. So therefore WE are the “true haters”.

Or as already stated:

These people we once cared about had their dark propensities, once upon a time, held in check by the realization that these were not what was universally accepted. But now that they found resonances, we have, to use a phrase, unleashed thirty million internal krakens.

Indeed.

53

Lemme illustrate this a bit (bolding mine):

54

Thank you. Folks on The Dope have been helpful through my hospitalizations.

55

I ditched social media in 2017 for this reason; I didn’t want to share things that would cause a rift and more importantly, didn’t want to read their stupid shit.

TBH, it didn’t really help; I’ve probably lost friends and family members over the Trump cult, but I feel better knowing that, I tried to avoid the insanity.

Maybe it’s time for a Rocky Mountain high, and just let live.

56

Perhaps after Biden is president for a while, enough people have been vaccinated that the virus is in the rear view mirror and the economy starts to recover, they might slowly come to the realization that their thought processes were in grievous error. Then when the revelations start coming out, and they will, about all the crooked stuff that was going on that we never heard about, that might prompt some rethinking. If not, hey, there’s always the camps, right.

57

The trouble is, the red state masses may never see this news, if Fox News doesn’t deign to run it. After all, it implicates Fox News, badly.

58

Yes, give people jobs. Get this virus under control. Help them with some money right now. Democrats really better deliver.

I know that it is going to be difficult for a lot of these people to get out from under the Trump spell, but I think we have to find a way to reach those who have not gone rabid. Unfortunately, my own attempts to reach people I care about who fall into that category, have so far been unsuccessful. They won’t talk about it. Period. But at least they aren’t defending Trump.

And yes, Fox News is not helping. The small part I saw today is just a bunch of whining about their first amendment rights are all being violated. And how twitter will let real terrorists in the Middle East have accounts, but not their own president.

So fucking frustrating.

59

I hear you. Months ago, after Trump got COVID, I made a scathing post on FB how it must be nice that our man-child President had access to the best medical care on the world, free of charge, and how reckless it was for him to inform people that it was nothing to fear.

An ex co-worker of mine IMd me and basically told me that she wanted to see pictures of my grandkids, NOT hear about my politics. I was polite at first, but she kept at it, saying that MAGAs are too polite to go on social media and talk politics. So I blocked her. Good riddance. Not necessary in my life.

But just yesterday, I ended a friendship of 25+ years. I’ll call him Bill. He’s good friends with my husband, and has a long distance relationship with my girlfriend of 30 years. I saw a text message from Bill to my husband that said, “It’s about time.” I asked DH what that meant, and he said it was about the Capitol insurrection. Apparently, Bill has become unhinged over the last few months and is completely convinced that the Election was rigged and that Trump won by half a million votes, EASILY. He is now immersed in some weird website, and they talk about the need for Civil War “to save our country.” He’s a former Naval Officer, and calls himself a “patriot.”

Needless to say, I was shocked. He’s one of the smartest people I’ve ever met. And instead of believing that Trump is lying because he has a vested interest in lying, he believes that there’s some grand conspiracy. What about GA being R? They were bought off. Somehow conspirators dumped a half million mail-in ballots that swung the election.

Anyway, after hearing this, I sent him a letter that said that unless he comes to he senses, he will not be welcome in my home, as I do not associate with seditionists. I told him that I put sedition in the same category as the KKK. Believe what you want, but the second you harm someone, or incite harm against someone, including our elected officials, then he has crossed a line. And that as long as he felt this way, I would distance myself from him.

I didn’t tell him this part, but if he continues on and DH thinks that he will take action, I will report his loony ass to the FBI.