I actually have answered this, many times, but you’ve missed it.
I think it’s normal and not weird at all to include pronouns during a round of introductions to people. I will not badger peoole over it. I will not nag or bully or insist that you answer.
If you do not answer, I will rely on either the “very obvious” gender cues (or listen for how other people refer to you) or I will use they/them. “Are they joining us for lunch?” instead of “Is he/she joining us for lunch.”
That’s all that will result of this situation from me, as far as you can tell.
Again, this is in a situation where I might ever need to refer to you at all, such as a conference, which is the context I was addressing in every post of this thread. I don’t see how I could work with a coworker and never, once ever, need to refer to them while talking to someone else. So…I’ll use they/them in the absence of clear information otherwise, but the “what are your pronouns” opening is a moment to signal otherwise.
I have a coworker named Jean I’ve never met and interacted with only by email. This person does not signal their pronouns in their email or status. I didn’t know if they were male or female or nb as the name can be used for both. I did have to refer to them when asking a colleague whether Jean was the right person to send a form to. I simply used “them” and avoided gendered language and my colleague told me that Jean was female.
Our language does use pronouns, and I want to use what you’re comfortable with, but I cannot read your mind, so this is how I navigate that situation.
Hopefully you’ll understand this post as written and not misinterpret me, because it’s the last I’ll bother trying to explain.
That’s fair. I have never felt entirely comfortable, so for me, it’s just swapping the flavor of discomfort.
But you can both be polite and also get your appropriate masculine pronouns by entering them when that’s an option. Hopefully, that can be a briefer discomfort.
Recently at work we had a company-wide meeting over LGBTQ+ and pronoun use. The speakers went through their choice of pronouns, why they identify as their particular gender, and the best way to communicate with somebody whose gender identity is unknown to you. They showed a nice colorful chart that showed the different between transitional gender, sexual gender, romantic gender, etc. One expert on the call said the wrong use of pronouns can cause untold psychological damage to somebody.
What about MY untold psychological damage? I’ve been in therapy and on head meds for decades, and it’s nothing to do with gender identity. I don’t expect special treatment for my pecadillos. I’m already antisocial, yet I’m still trying to fit in and not be a burden. Now I’m more determined not to speak to anybody in case I get their goddamned pronouns wrong!
The malicious and persistent wrong use of pronouns, maybe. I think any reasonable person should understand that accidents happen (and unreasonable people are not worth reasoning with).
What percentage of people do you believe prefer pronouns other than the apparent he or she reflecting their appearance? I suspect it is relatively small - maybe 5-10%? While I am happy to make the effort to use whatever pronouns they prefer, it does not strike me as unsurprising that some of the 95% consider it bothersome or silly to go through the exercise of everyone stating their pronouns. Especially when they don’t really care much one way or another about the person.
I don’t know how much it would offend me if someone called my homely old 6’4" obviously male self “she”. Pretty sure I wouldn’t even notice “they.” But it is hard to get in the mind of someone who has been marginalized. I have a sorta long surname, and am often sorta bemused when someone like a clerk will make a stab out of pronouncing it, and then ask, “Did I get it right?” I cannot overstate how much I don’t care. We are never going to interact again, and all I needed to know was that it was my turn. Point at me and say, “Hey you!” and I’m fine.
IMO, a good percentage of people just don’t care enough about their cow-orkers to make the effort to remember their pronoun preference. All they care about is that they do their freaking jobs. In fact, if someone makes a point of specifying certain pronouns or forms of address, I might likely classify them as someone to avoid, as I would suspect that I might inadvertently mess up and give them cause to complain to mgmt.
Certain forms of address, like their name? We can all agree that it’s legitimate to require people to get their coworkers names correct, and that persistently or deliberately misnaming someone is at least akin to harassment. I can also agree that misnamed people, if their names are unusual in the society of their coworkers, or if their names have recently changed, should appreciate that immediate and perfect recall of their name is unrealistic to expect.
It’s the same with pronouns, the militants can back down with the anger, and the annoyed can back down with their Frozen Caveman Lawyer arguments.
In a recent thread the OP got a warning for talking about a transgender public figure using the wrong pronouns because he said he didn’t buy that they were really transgender, just doing it for attention.
This. As i mentioned, i am a member of some clubs and social groups with a lot of people with non-obvious pronouns. And i know some others through friends and family. And I’ve never seen an unpleasant situation from an honest mistake. I have misgendered my friends more often than i care to recount (I’m getting better) and i find that “and then he said…i mean, they said…” has never been a problem.
It’s the people who are unwilling to even try who get flak. And even then, they typically get the benefit of the doubt the first couple of times.
We might differ on how we define “need.” As opposed to “want.”
One of my few primary concerns at work is avoiding HR issues or anything that would endanger my continued income. I know of 2 people in my workplace whom I consider (with, I think, adequate reason) potential landmines. Both of them use cis pronouns. My desire to avoid potentially offending these people by what I say or do far outweighs any interest I have in them as people.
In the abstract, I wish each of my cow-orkers to be as happy as they can be. In reality, tho, I really don’t care and my default setting is to avoid any potential issues. Call my attitude toxic? Hmm - I’ve used the same word to think of my easily offended cow-orkers.
This whole thread became about pronouns, instead of transgender issues (I’m no expert, but pronouns is only one of them, I imagine).
In any case, I like when people specify pronouns in their work profile, because we have people from all over the world who work for this company and I don’t really know the gender of many foreign names. The people in this thread who say, “well, my name is obviously tied to my gender” are living a pretty parochial, sheltered life.
The interaction between Saint Cad and mnemosyne is really bewildering to me – I think that mnemosyne has made it really clear how they will address someone who refuses to give pronouns – best guess, if it’s fairly obvious, or “they/their” if it’s not.
I agree that no one should be required to give their pronouns, but I don’t understand why someone who is comfortable with their pronouns, especially if they are gender-conforming, would refuse to do so. It’s the easiest thing in the world and can signal support for people who are shy about it.
This is just that silly desire for semantic neatness, but I feel like the term for deliberate and/or malicious wrong-gendering should be called disgendering, with misgendering being the accidental form (like misinformation vs disinformation).
I am not petitioning to change this, obviously. The ship has sailed.
It just depends on the social circles you run in I guess. I think it is weird and not at all normal to include pronouns during a round of introductions. In my entire life, I’ve never hard someone introduce themselves by saying, “Hi, I’m Bob and I my pronouns are he/them. Now let’s play a game of Power Grid!” That said, if someone asked I’d answer, but I’d think it was weird that they asked. What social situations are you in where providing your preferred pronouns is the norm?
I think the OP had in mind instances like how you’d get roasted for saying a Harry Potter video looked neat, which was a thing for a month a year ago or so.