You know, when I get tired of hearing about something in the media I just… you know… turn off the media and read a book or watch something from my DVD/VHS library or knit or play piano…
No one is chaining you to a couch, gluing open your eyelids, and forcing you to watch TV or the internet.
So being a lumberjack isn’t the career choice you hoped it would be?
Actually, the sucking cocks thing was a joke. You didn’t have to do that.
Here’s the thing, there’s a lot of things about a lot of people that most people can’t understand. Sometimes I can sympathize, others I can empathize, still others I struggle with even getting why something that’s mundane to me is big to other people and vice versa.
For instance, using my own experience, I struggle with depression. The worst thing is when people are just like “get over it”. They don’t understand, but I don’t really expect them to because it’s outside of their experience. People who realize that either don’t do it or accept a correction when given, other people who don’t are probably just callous and I don’t have any real desire to associate with them
For me, even as a man, gender has never been something that’s that important to me, I often don’t even really register other people as male or female. To that point, macho men and girly women are just as confusing as transgender as I just don’t have an experience of my gender having much to do with my identity. But as it’s clear it has a lot to do for a lot of people. What happens when one part of a person’s identity, something they hold very dear to who they are doesn’t match up with society’s expectations for that? Aside from my gender, I DO have other aspects of who I am that don’t match up with society’s expectations, and for the most part (overwhelmingly, even) it doesn’t cause me to have problems dealing with everyday life.
So, what if some aspect of who you are, what is very real to you down to your core were something that caused, at best awkward, and at worst bigoted or violent, interactions on a daily basis? Don’t you think you’d want something changed? Sure, like with sexuality, one can try to hide it, and can probably get by, but then one is living in denial, and that leads to all sorts of psychological problems too.
The point is, real people, real families are suffering, and I think we as a society should be willing to make reasonable accommodations to that end. For instance, it’s a trivial effort to use preferred names or pronouns, but that can go a long way to making someone feel accepted.
Frankly, I dislike the term cis-gendered too, but mostly because in everyday life, it’s largely a meaningless distinction. By that, I mean in the context of what the trans community is dealing with, and talking about, there needs to be a precise way to refer to various states of gender and sex and all of that that’s, to a large extent, outside of my general knowledge. But in a given encounter with a given individual, I could give a damn what is between someone’s legs, what state of transition they are or aren’t in. And so, for me, if you present as male, you’re just male, and same for female; I don’t need to make a distinction between trans-male and cis-male, etc.
So, my point is, if someone is using the term in a discussion like that, leave it alone. If someone uses it as a pejorative–and I have seen cis-gender used that way, unfortunately–then go ahead and call that person an asshole. Or, better yet, just ignore them.
Really? I remember a bit of a commotion around the whole Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner thing, and then some more stuff about transgender bathrooms, but even the latter has mostly been dropped in favor of election coverage as far as I’ve seen. What media outlets are you seeing that are still that focused on transgender issues as a hot button topic enough to the point that you’d get sick of it?
But that’s the point. It’s one thing to say to them to just do what they need to be happy. But that’s not enough. This is sort of like saying “if you’re gay, go ahead and fuck dudes, I don’t care, leave me out of it”. This involves you because it involves society. They’re seeking acceptance in society as a whole. In order for them to have anything that might approach happiness, they’re asking society to make a few small changes for them.
Think of it this way. It’s like passing laws making it illegal to be racist, giving all races the right to vote and all, but then people still give uncomfortable stares at other races based on various stereotypes or talk differently or whatever. It’s not enough to have equality on paper, there’s more to it than that. Some transgender people will get weird looks or get treated with some degree of contempt or disgust or whatever.
Fair enough. And I don’t ask for the world to do that for me either. We ALL have challenges, some of need help, some more than others, and particularly at risk are those who need help and are unwilling or unable to ask for it. I want to live in a world where people can be treated equally in these regards. And, you know, helping other people, even in these small things, and having these pleasant interactions is one of the things that actually helps me with some of my own challenges. And sometimes people help me in ways I didn’t think anyone could.
Maybe you could be in a similar place where maybe others can help you and make your life suck less if only you let them or asked. If you’ve been in a place where society has attacked you for something about who you are, this is exactly the sort of thing that might end up helping you.
Why does it matter who did the leg work? If anything, this is a GOOD thing. Why should each group of people who are oppressed in some way have to start from scratch? It took decades to get black people and women more or less treated equally, it took maybe a couple to get gays into a similar place. It looks like it’s taking transgender a little less time. Isn’t it progress that we can see how people are harmed and respond to it faster and faster?
How awesome of a world could it be when we identify something wrong, and rather than waiting for old generations set in their ways and bigotry to die off and slowly fix things, we can just make a little effort and change things in a few years? I want to live in that world.
And, to an even larger degree, the same can be said about race relations and gender relations. Yet, there’s still situations that crop up of racial or gender bias. These have generally gotten better over the years, but there’s no state of permanent victory. Yeah, I think sometimes things get a little ridiculous and taken too far on some of these fronts and that can sometimes drown out very real issues with nonsense, but we still have an obligation as a free and just society to recognize issues and address them
Frankly, this seems to be the biggest issue. I have a friend who is super into politics but was complaining about how draining it was and how it was EVERYWHERE (which, admittedly is worse here in the DC-metro area than pretty much anywhere else). I made some advice to him to stop watching certain channels and reading certain sites. It was about a week later he commented on how much difference it made in just seeing less of it and how much more relaxed he was and could focus on other things.
Simply put, if you’re hearing too much about something, even if it’s something you are generally sympathetic to, adjust where you’re getting your news and information from and who you talk to about things. This is something you have control over, and it’s pretty darn quick and easy to fix.
I think your anger around the issue will fade pretty quick and perhaps even your sympathy toward the issues will increase if you make that small adjustment.
The O.P. reminded me of this Onion article.
It’s also a homonym for “sis,” a term of endearment for a sister, and rhymes with “Miss” and “kiss.” Does “sis” as a term for a sister bother you? Does “kiss” bother you?
I feel slightly uncomfortable with it, too, but I’m okay with that discomfort. It’s like when folks point out that I’m one of the white workers at my place of employment. Sure, I am, but normally that’s just taken as default: there’s the normal-race people, and the black people. It’s helpful to be reminded–even uncomfortably–that I’m not some sort of default model.
Same thing with “cisgender.” Same thing with “neurotypical.” These are fine words, and the slight discomfort you feel with them is a feature, not a bug.
I think the word “cisgendered” just doesn’t flow right – it sounds rather awkward. I don’t care about what it means, just the way it sounds.
Well, obviously you DO care, or you wouldn’t have spent so much time writing a long, angry screed about it.
Second choice was the Royal Navy.
I agree, it comes across as forced because for some reason “straight” is no longer Politically Correct. It also comes across as nonsense to those who are familiar with the prefix cis-. The case still has to be made that cis-gender isn’t intended as derogatory. For example the rule here on SDMB about being a jerk, what the hell does masterbation have to do with posting here … unless we’re using it as an insult.
The word is divisive when it is unity we are seeking.
Despite their lily-white skin, we still call them Jews … just stupid IMEIO … just making up a difference to hate by
Well…no. He advocated a kind of “STFU” censorship. “I don’t like what you’re saying, so shut up.”
He was right on target when he said, “You speak from complete ignorance.” Exactly the right thing to say. But he slipped into error when he said, “So stop it. Stop it right now. . . .”
Much better to say something at least partially constructive, like, “You need to learn the facts so you won’t be speaking in ignorance. You need to study the truth, so you won’t be repeating falsehoods.” But “Just stop talking” is a bad way to conduct a national dialogue.
Because of course the solution is to completely derail the actual conversation with nitpicking and tone policing.
You’d made that same point twice now, you’re done.
You have made multiple errors in your post.
[ol]
[li]The word “straight” does not work. The majority of trans people are also straight. Straight refers to sexuality, not gender.[/li]
[li]The word “cis” has already been explained. It is the opposite of trans. Both were used in chemistry well before the concept was applied to sexuality. Cisgendered is literally the scientific term. It’s like saying the word “penis” is offensive.[/li]
[li]It is you who has to explain how it is a bad term. You have to prove how the word “cis” has any derivation or history that would make it seem offensive. [/li]
[li]Masturbation does have a history of being used as an insult. And talking about it is allowed here when it’s not being used as an insult. Hell, we had a thread about pan-fried semen. [/li]
[li]Antisemitism is a real thing, and has nothing to do with Jewish people calling themselves Jews. [/li]
[li]There is no abbreviation IMEIO. If you wish to make up a new abbreviation, you need to spell it out first. [/li]
[li]You don’t know the first thing about the subjects you are talking about, so you should inform yourself before making posts on them.[/li][/ol]
There isn’t a national dialog. This is one guy telling a shitty person to shut up.
Here you are also telling someone how they should talk. I guess you don’t believe in their freedom of speech, either.
It’s fucking stupid to try to equate saying “shut up” to an asshole with censorship.
What do I do if I only like rum? I’d become a pirate but they also have the lash.
I fully support the struggles of the transgendered for equal rights, as I do for the LGBT community as a whole. My issue here is entirely with language and with one word in particular, and I say this much as I recognize language as an important tool for advancing social causes and promoting culture change. That doesn’t change the fact that sometimes the linguistic engineering is just stupid. And sometimes it’s brilliant – the gold medal goes to the gay community for such a happy label, even though they had to appropriate a long-standing existing word to do it – it’s strange in these times to read an old book with a sentence like “I went to a gay party” and realize how much that word has changed!
But stupidity prevails with the ugly and entirely gratuitous word “cisgendered”. Clearly the transgendered needed a word to define their cohort, and they have one that they’re accepting of and comfortable with. The gender status of the rest of us is thus defined as being not transgendered. Yet apparently someone in that community thought that both their own term for themselves and its implied inverse cast some kind of aspersion on them, and that the only way to deal with it was to invent an explicit label for the non-transgendered that could be waved around in a kind of retribution against the non-transgendered, and if the word sounded ugly and unnatural, so much the better. Honestly, the first time I heard the word, I though it referred to some obscure deviant niche of transgenderism, like maybe somebody having a penis growing out of their forehead. Today it remains a completely unnecessary word that still conveys that ugly and unnatural sense that some transgender activists seem to like to apply to everyone who isn’t just like themselves.
Once again, we clash on a matter of language. Why should I be obliged to feel discomfort about a word that I never endorsed as a description for my group, applied with a disconcerting sense of animosity by a group which itself enjoys a self-approved self-appointed designation? To the transgendered I am cisgendered, to certain African-Americans I am a honky, and to certain French-Canadians I am a maudit anglais. None of those have any notable positive “feature”, and indeed all of them seem to promote divisiveness and diminish the goal of inclusiveness to which we all should aspire and from which minorities have the most to gain. Maybe some of these enterprising engineers of the cultural lexicon should consider that the goal of an inclusive and egalitarian community is best served by having fewer factional labels, not more.
Man, OP, I’m so sorry you have it so hard. Having to hear about how these people exist, how these people deserve equal rights, and having to hear others use inclusive, neutral language… That sure sounds worse than, y’know, actually being transgendered. Sure sucks to be you.
And I’m another guy telling another guy to calm down after he went a little too far.
If your guy gets to say, “Shut up,” why don’t I get to say, “Calm down?”
I think the most tragic thing about this whole argument is that gender is a social construct. It is not about genetics.
Yes, there are some biological differences between men and women, but the notion of gender has nothing to with biology.
You do not have to cut off your penis, or change your vagina, to identify as female/male gender. You have to do that to try and artificially identify as a male or female sexually, but not for gender.
The great crime in our society is that we have people mutilating themselves in order to be socially accepted when they wear clothes different from their biological sexuality, or when they adopt certain behavioral traits associated with a gender. They should just be accepted for their behavioral preferences and be referred to by the pronouns they desire, regardless of what sexual organs they possess.
Anyone who rationally chooses to surgically alter themselves AFTER they understand gender is a social construct, then that is one thing. But, if someone is forced by society to think they must harm themselves to be “accepted” as a certain gender construct, then that is a tragedy.
No, I don’t mean it sounds hateful. It just sounds awkward. Try and come up with something else to mean “non-trans.”
Who gives a fuck what you thought incorrectly the first time you heard a word? That’s important?
This is almost entirely in your head. You’re ascribing a bunch of motivations to a fictional group of people just based on your own personal feelings about being labeled. Non-transgender and cisgender aren’t even the same thing.