Force of habit, apparently.
To answer Kimstu, I thought most of them were babes. Not tradtional “Barbies” but there wasn’t a single one of them that I would have said “no” to if they had expressed desire to ravish my innocent bod.
To the rest of you Greek haters, there are bad chapters and good chapters. Like everything else in real life, Greek organizations run the gamut. As to why they exist, humans are a social animal. There are groups of every type on campus. There are Greek organizations that have different purposes. Some are service, some are social, some are both. Some are foolish, some are serious, some are both. Do not judge the system by a very few bad apples. I hope that these girls at Depauw form a new sorority and that the University give them the sponsorship that originaly went to that sorority.
As for why we join. Most people join cllubs and organizations that they have something in common with. Be it a chess club, math club, country club, or God forbid, The Straight Dope Message Boards. All of you have paid dues to a club where none of us have met. (Well, at least until we became members. I know that a lot of us have met others at DopeFests. ) We have become a fraternity. We all have something in common. Fighting ignorance. We pay our yearly dues. Some of us get banished because we are intellectually unattractive. (Read assholes) On campus you join a Greek organization that you have something in common with the members. If you don’t , you join another group or you choose to stay independent. What is difficult to understand about that?
Wide brush here, but when I think sorority girl I think “no confidence.” No confidence to be unique. No confidence to be your own person, to dress or talk in your own style. A desperate need for social approval at any cost.
Around here, the sorority girls (and there are a lot of them) tend to walk around on campus with their eyes fixed on the pavement. Looking down at the ground, not all around them, taking in the amazing architecture and beautiful trees. (I spend a lot of time people-watching, and one thing I always notice is the way in which people are looking at their surroundings.)
For a lot of girls, the sorority membership seems to be a shield that they can hide their timid selves behind and feel powerful. Sure, there are exceptions, but when I look at the faces of most girls in the sorority “uniform” (straightened hair, North Face jacket or Greek sweatshirt, tight jeans or skintight day-glo sweatpants, heavy makeup) I see unassertive, uncertain eyes. When I hear them talk, I hear fear in their voices.
There are sororities that don’t conform to the stereotypes, but the ones whose members wear the “uniform” seem to mostly contain wimpy girls, none of whom I’d personally want to date or even just sleep with. I’ll take the indie rock girl with the cigarette voice and the clothes from Goodwill (fortunately, I already have her. Asian too.) [/brag] 
call me Rivers.
Carol Stream mental health isn’t an all-or-nothing proposition. We all have mental health (just as we all have physical health) and it’s on a continuum from nearly perfect to nearly dead. A person can most certainly suffer a bout of mental illness just as we all suffer from episodes of physical illness.
As Monty Python said, “I got better.”
Re: the thread, Hippy Hollow nailed it. Bravo to the six who quit.
Great observation - I think you quite accurately described the relationship between (some) abused children and their parents (which may be just a coincidence insofar as the Greek system is concerned, I dunno). I’ve seen grown adults, who should know better, relating to their formerly abusive parents in exactly that way.
There are some shitty Greek orgs, and some great ones. I don’t understand why a board supposedly dedicated to fighting ignorance has so many people who will paint all GLOs with an extremely broad brush of “they are always awful!”
My uni had some GLOs, though only a small percentage of the students were part of Greek life. There were some frats/sororities who, in general, were a bit jerky or cliqueish. There were others that were pretty damn cool. I never ended up joining one, but I have a friend who had joined one of the sororities.
It was a damn nice sorority! It was very relaxed and laid-back. There were white girls, black girls*, skinny girls, fat girls, rich girls, poor girls, etc etc. If you were interested in joining, they had financial assistance if you couldn’t afford to pay the dues. I became an unofficial honorary member (of sorts) for about a year, since I ended up being friends with about 70% of the girls there; I almost joined but I only had a year to go in school, so I didn’t bother. They didn’t do any hazing, just tried to make anyone who was interested see what they were about and feel welcome.
Yes, some GLOs can be shitty and full of nasty hazing. But there are plenty of good ones out there that truly make their members feel welcome without acting like non-members are scum.
- although most black girls who wanted to join a sorority joined Alpha Kappa Alpha.
I’m fairly tall, but not that tall, so I’m not used to seeing women from that angle. But yeah, I’d say they’re fairly attractive, from what I can see.
Of course, Hollywood teaches us that an ugly duckling has to take off her glasses to become beautiful, and plump women simply don’t exist. :rolleyes:
In the interest of full disclose, not only am I a member of a Greek-Letter Organization but I’m also a DePauw student. Go figure?
First, to echo what has already been brought up, Greek organizations have bad apples and good ones, sometimes it’s just easier to point the finger at everyone.
For those interested in citations regarding hazing, off hand I have this:
http://www.umaine.edu/news/article.asp?id_no=1281
I have the current study on hand here somewhere, but I’ll have to dig around to find it online. Furthermore, there have been some excellent scholarly pieces written on the prevalence of hazing in college. I can dig them up if anyone is curious.
For reference, at DePauw, all Greek organizations are required to do this and to abide by what they’ve turned in. Consequences of deviating from the outlined plan can be severe.
And I think I’ll leave it at that. While I have my own criticisms of Greek life, I’d spend all day defending it, and hijacking the thread in doing so I fear, but I’d rather not. What I have had is an incredible experience that I’d do again in a heartbeat.
Not in this sorority chapter, apparently. These girls exercised their freedom of association and the national organization kicked them out.
Not in this case. They started with a diverse organization and rendered it homgeneous by kicking out every person of color.
You apparently are focusing on the six “invited to stay” girls who nevertheless chose to leave – and good for them. But how does that change the plight of the nearly 30 girls that were kicked out? I have a hard time reading this story and seeing it as a fine example of anything.
I certainly see the basis to say “Not all S/F are like that!” especially when your personal experiences have been so different and so positive. But this sort of outrageous behavior will of course inform what the public thinks of the Greek system. You’d think there’d be outrage and backlash from other Greek organizations, but there hasn’t been any. And why? IMO, it’s because “we only want pretty attractive homogeneous girls in our white sorority” is pretty well understood, and no major white sorority is going to condemn this national organization for adhering to that implicit ideal.
So how have many other organizations avoided having to reorg and kick all the black/ethnic/plump/awkward girls out? They don’t let them in, in the in the first place.
They do exist here in Canada, but they seem to be little more than social clubs that also have housing for members, if the member needs a place to live. At least, the frat guys I knew when I was doing my undergrad were not required to live in them to belong to the frat. Of course, we do not have any “must live on campus” requirements at our schools, which may help explain why the frats and sororities do not play a large role in our school life. Neither, for that matter, do dorms or residences.
Maybe, featherlou, the difference lies in the size of the school. From looking at the links supplied and following others I found, I see that DePauw is only about 2400 students. I would imagine that if you do not get into a frat or a sorority there, you may well have limited social opportunities during your time as a DePauw student. Contrast that to our schools–we have nowhere near the number of schools as they do in the US, so ours tend to be bigger: U of Toronto is about 40,000 students; U of Alberta is about 30,000–and it is easy to see that if you do not make it into a frat or a sorority at those schools, you’re not left out. There are plenty of other opportunities to socialize and make friends. In addition, with only a few exceptions, our schools are not located in “college towns,” where little to do exists off-campus and social activities must necessarily revolve around school. You’re not in a frat? Big deal, you can head out to the bars and nightclubs in Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Toronto, Montreal, Halifax, or St. John’s, among other places. With our lower drinking ages in Canada, such an excursion is a possible and popular alternative to a frat party.
Regardless, the actions of the DZ national office to the DePauw chapter were, IMHO, reprehensible. Forcing selected members to stay upstairs in their rooms while a recruitment drive was occurring downstairs? Dumping 23 members for being fat/non-white–oh, sorry, I mean “not committed” to recruitment? :rolleyes: (Anybody know if a “backtracking doublespeak” award exists? I’d like to nominate the DZ national office.) So much for sisterhood and lifelong friendships. Good for the women who were not kicked out but chose to leave anyway! I’d like to see them get together with their 23 friends and start their own sorority or social club–one where the only requirement for membership is a commitment to making friends based on character, and standing by each other.
Jodi - I certainly have had a mixed experience personally in the Greek system.
This example clearly shows that the DZ national office is run by idiots. I’m more responding to the tendency on this boards to dump on GLOs without regarding the fact that the organizations vary tremendously, and individuals within the organizations also are exactly that - individuals.
I just wanted to challenge people to think about diversity a bit. Often it’s essentialized to having Black or Brown faces in a group. But having people from different regions of the country, different life experiences, and the like is precisely what some GLOs can offer. For some, that doesn’t happen.
Trust me, from my own experiences as a member and as an administrator I can rail on for days about the inadequacies of GLOs, the idiots I’ve encountered, and so on. But I feel it’s very unfair to ignore the fact that in my experience, and I would wager, a good number of my fellow student affairs professionals, we look to GLOs to provide leaders and role models. We look to student government and honoraries as well. All of these groups have similar tendencies when it comes to bad behavior. It isn’t limited to GLOs.
I don’t know what the response has been from other GLOs, but I think it’s a pretty high bar you’re setting to say that whenever an organization behaves badly, similar organizations should be expected to condemn them. When a school band gets busted for hazing, I don’t think journalists typically ask other school bands for their take, nor do other school bands typically offer an opinion.
Again, I think DZ is run by idiots, possibly racist, ethnocentric, lookist, and shallow people at that. But this kind of exclusionary action is what leads to the establishment of other GLOs. Jewish students were excluded from GLOs in the early 1900s, so they formed Zeta Beta Tau and Alpha Epsilon Pi. At the same time Black students were excluded from GLOs and they formed Alpha Phi Alpha and Alpha Kappa Alpha. Latino students, gay students, Asian students, and even students who dislike secrets form their own GLOs (Delta Upsilon). Historically, students critique organizations and then form their own. Maybe these young women will do the same, whether it be in the form of another sorority, or a club, or a collection of friends. I completely agree that the national organization behaved incredibly inappropriately, and they deserve the scorn and ridicule they’re going to get. I also feel very sorry for the women who were expelled. I think if I was a friend of any of them, I’d remind them that half of their remaining sisters chose to leave the organization as well. The other six could have any host of reasons why they chose to stay.
Trust me, many GLOs will buck the system and bring in members that are racially, nationally, socioeconomically, and even phenotypically different. There’s always the public relations aspect - it looks good to say you have some diversity. Also, legacies and prominent leadership qualities often bring different types of people in - being able to get people to listen and follow you, whether it’s to a study group or to a party, is a very important part of Greek life. The flip side of this is that often the “different” students understand why they’re being asked, at least in part, to be part of the organization, and some people don’t want to be race pioneers or tokens. There is often a strong stigma associated with Black students who choose to join “White” fraternities, for instance.
But regarding this particular case and this particular national office - I completely agree with everything you’ve said about them.
First laugh-out-loud post of the day for me! Well-riposted.
Thanks, Spoons - that clears up a lot of questions for me.
Bolding mine.
Or making the pledges **think ** they were going to fornicate with sheep:
I’m so glad my college didn’t have a Greek system-unless you count a few National Honor societies.
I think the national leadership must have decided they wanted that chapter closed but didn’t want to say so. I mean, who handles a recruiting event like this:
Yeah, like I’d join any organization that wouldn’t let me see most of the local members but brought in some from another school for me to meet. :dubious:
I should have caught this sooner, but I changed the title to be less useless. As a rule, please try to put at least some shred of information in the thread title.
Sorry for what you consider a hijack. But I guess I don’t understand what this board’s definition of a hijack actually is.
Wouldn’t your personal attack on my posts be a hijack in and of itself, as your above quote has nothing to do with the OP?
In any case, if I express my opinion in almost any thread, I am accused of “hijacking”, but if I hold back and don’t say anything, I am “not participating”.
What would you have me do, then? 
That’s just too easy.
Well, an example of a hijack would be:
- to enter a thread critiizing one example of the Greek system on U.S. college campuses and, instead of either criticizing or defending the sorority involved or participating in a wider discussion of the actions of the particular sorority or of the Greek system, overall,
- interjecting an insult against some of the victims of the sorority’s actions by insisting that a description of their situation indicated they were mentally ill–a false claim based on a disingenuous use of the terms involved–then using that incorrect definition to dismiss their trauma,
- then repeatedly returning to the thread to repost your “mentally ill” comment that has nothing to do with the general topic and depends on a deliberate misrepresentation of the words employed in order to continue.
Not in and of itself. My posts were a minor continuation of your hijack, posted with the intent to fight your ignorance so that you would drop your hijack.
Your opinions are generally ill-informed, often misleading, and nearly always intended to insult someone. And they are frequently off-topic, leading to charges of hijacking.
Pay attention to the actual topic of the thread, learn enough of the topic to not post ignorance, and back off on the insulting tone.
Seems easy enough. Most posters handle it quite well.
I appear to have erred in a number of ways when starting this thread. I apologize; I have done better in the past and will try to do better in the future. I can only attribute my lapse to temporary overcaffeination.