[QUOTE=Cervaise]
Force of habit, apparently.
[/QUOTE]
And now Cervaise is my new hero.
[QUOTE=Carol Stream]
Quite upsetting, yes. But mentally ill? Not so much. YMMV.
[/QUOTE]
You are misunderstanding the definition of “depression”.
There are different types and causes of depression. Some are pahtological, others are not.
For example, if your baby died, you could go into a long and severe depression. That would be quite normal emotional response to a devastatingly sad situation. An external stimulus is producing a predictable and normal emotional response. In time, you’ll feel better as you adjust to the situation that caused the depression. It is usually temporary.
Someone who suffers from chronic depression that is defined as mental illness, is experiencing acute depression independently of any specific cause or stimulus. It’s like the brain chemistry is producing the chemicals for “severely depressed” even though there is no external stimulus for it.
Normal depression = a reasonably expected emotional response to a situation or event.
“Mental illness” depression = biochemistry is making you feel utter despair for no reason.
Hey knuckleheads, all this hijacking is starting to get me depressed. Member to member, can you go elsewheres with this shit? You’re drowning out a really good post:
[QUOTE=Fuzzy Wombats]
In the interest of full disclose, not only am I a member of a Greek-Letter Organization but I’m also a DePauw student. Go figure?
[. . .]
While I have my own criticisms of Greek life, I’d spend all day defending it, and hijacking the thread in doing so I fear, but I’d rather not. What I have had is an incredible experience that I’d do again in a heartbeat.
[/QUOTE]
I’d do it all over again as well.
[QUOTE=El Cid Viscoso]
Hey knuckleheads, all this hijacking is starting to get me depressed. Member to member, can you go elsewheres with this shit?
[/QUOTE]
Whoops, sorry pal. I didn’t notice there was a whole second page evolving from the hijack.
Okay here we go: Hijack continues here – “Normal” depression vs. “clinical” depression.
You may now enjoy your Pit thread unencumbered and return to your regularly scheduled programming.
I wish someone who’s trying to defend the frat rat, er, Greek system, would respond to Jodi’s incisive post about most sororities not having the OP sororities’ problem because they don’t let diverse/unattractive women in, in the first place. That is, that the Greek system is really about social class and keeping the non-Greek types in their place.
Which is how I, a former secretary of Phi Beta Kappa, feel about it.
[QUOTE=Evil Captor]
Which is how I, a former secretary of Phi Beta Kappa, feel about it.
[/QUOTE]
Hey bro.
PBK may be the first Greek collegiate society, and the only one that ever asked me to be a member, but it is rather different from the greek social fraternities.
It is sorta cool to have Thomas Jefferson as a frat brother, though.
I grew up in a college town. I have no misconceptions about the “quality” of people in sororities/fraternities.
That being said, in regard to social things such as sewing circles and such. I am here to state that I was REJECTED by a Mom’s club.
I so want a shirt. I’m thinking that if I couldn’t get into a Mom’s club, my chances of being in a sorority are pretty nil.
AB
Mom’s Club Reject
Disclaimer: Never belonged to a GLO. Never particularly wanted to.
I don’t think there’s a lot of confusion about the academic fraternities versus the social fraternities/sororities, but I thought I’d throw that one out there – some GLOs are music or academics oriented and do not (as far as I know!) suffer these problems.
My only suggestion would be for the girls who were kicked out and who left of their own volition to start up their own organization. I think it would be a marvelous concept to have a social organization for misfits, say, or for any other way these girls like to define themselves. I belonged to a co-op in college; they were called “poor-man’s fraternities” back in the sixties when my father went to school there, and that’s more or less what they were. Very very affordable housing, houses between twelve and a hundred or so students, very collective, very community-oriented, usually vegetarian and/or environmentally conscious so perhaps not for everyone.
I’m willing to bet that there’s at least a few cooperative organizations in and around that part of Indiana. I’ll bet that with some hard work and fundraising, those girls could set up housing. That’s how our coops started – granted, that plus donations from well-heeled alumni (alumnae, come to think of it; most of the UT coop donors were women AFAIK) could set up a sort of women’s empowerment sorority.
[QUOTE=Evil Captor]
I wish someone who’s trying to defend the frat rat, er, Greek system, would respond to Jodi’s incisive post about most sororities not having the OP sororities’ problem because they don’t let diverse/unattractive women in, in the first place. That is, that the Greek system is really about social class and keeping the non-Greek types in their place.
Which is how I, a former secretary of Phi Beta Kappa, feel about it.
[/QUOTE]
How about my post, eh?
I remember that! Hee hee, that was a great thread, Auntbeast! Those ladies sure were crazy. I wonder if the DZ national organization has been getting any membership recruitment tips from them…
[QUOTE=Kimstu]
By the way, as long as we’re talking about judgments based on looks, does anyone here really think that any of the women shown in the linked article’s photo (a group shot of the sorority members who were evicted or resigned in protest) is seriously unattractive?
Yeah, some are plump or fat, some wear glasses, some are Asian, some are tomboyish. But to my 43-year-old heterosexual female eyes, they all look at least quite acceptably cute and nice. If we were talking a bunch of unwashed sociopaths oozing pus or something, I could see why the national org might not want to keep them around. But what kind of organization would give the boot to twenty-three of its members just for looking and behaving like pleasant ordinary girls rather than gorgeous sexpots?
[/QUOTE]
They pretty much looked like my sorority pledge class. I just can’t grasp this mindset. Our rush style was all about, “Do you like us? Do we like you? Are we a good fit? Yes? C’mon in!” And “socially awkward?” I’m the shyest and most awkward person on the planet. Didn’t seem to be a big issue.
I do remember a Glamour magazine article a few years ago that came to the same conclusions (bigger than a size 6? Buh-bye) after interviews with rushers and rushees, but I can’t for the life of me remember which college they used for the article.
And as for hazing? Nope. Never happened to me. The goofiest thing we had to do was follow colored ribbons to teddy bears which would then lead us to our pledge moms. In the privacy of the house. No public humiliation, unless you count a couple of set-up blind dates. Poor guys. I’m sure they’re in therapy for the trauma to this day.
[QUOTE=tomndebb]
- interjecting an insult against some of the victims of the sorority’s actions by insisting that a description of their situation indicated they were mentally ill–a false claim based on a disingenuous use of the terms involved–then using that incorrect definition to dismiss their trauma
[/quote]
Wow. I must really not be expressing myself clearly here. I wasn’t calling the sorority girls “mentally ill” or trying to insult anyone. That was not my intent.
I thought that what the Nationals did was sucky, but I also thought the reaction of the parents, university, and subsequent commentators was over the top, as well. And that’s what I was commenting upon.
Claiming that these girls are suffering from “self-esteem issues” and are “depressed”, over a sorority, is odd to me. I thought we got over this sort of bias 30-40 years ago. What’s next, bringing back smelling salts and fainting couches?
No? Then I’d have to agree with you: you really weren’t expressing yourself clearly.
As I noted in an earlier post, these post-adolescent girls got kicked out of their home and separated from their roommates and friends, simply because a bunch of strangers decided they weren’t sufficiently physically attractive and/or socially confident. I think most young women, or young men for that matter, would find such an experience depressing and damaging to their self-esteem.
Even strong, mature, fully adult men and women get depressed and suffer in their self-esteem if they’re kicked out of their home or thrown out of an organization that’s important to them, no matter what the reason. It’s not just over-fragile shrinking violets clutching their smelling salts on their fainting couch who can have a tough time dealing with something like that.
[QUOTE=Carol Stream]
Claiming that these girls are suffering from “self-esteem issues” and are “depressed”, over a sorority, is odd to me. I thought we got over this sort of bias 30-40 years ago. What’s next, bringing back smelling salts and fainting couches?
[/QUOTE]
Can I ask what would be, in your mind, a proper stimulus for causing “self-esteem issues” and being “depressed?” Does one have to lose a family member, or just a limb to qualify for being allowed to legitimately feel depressed? Do you have to be crapped on, metaphorically, by a certain minimum number of people before one is allowed to have issues with their self-esteem?
For the love of little green aliens, these girls were given notice that arrived on Dec. 2 that they’d have to find new housing for the spring semester. I don’t know if you can remember the scheduling details of college, but usually there’s this rite of passage associated with the end of every semester, called “finals.” For the fall semester this will usually occur in December. Usually this rite of passage is noted for being stressful, and even upsetting for students who know where they’ll be living come the next semester. Let’s add into the mixture, now, that these girls who were told to leave had to face this minor rite of passag while trying to find housing in near a university. Considering that most (not all, of course) of the off-campus housing looking to rent to undergrads will be on a Fall to Fall annual rental schedule, this can also be a bit of a challenge. In short this is not a minor inconvenience these girls were faced with, but a major one, added to an already stressful time.
Now, consider, they’ve been told (in the opinion of most the posters in this thread) that they’re too far from standards of beauty to be allowed to live with people. That because of their lack of pulchritude they’ve got this stress dumped on them. And there’s fuck-all they can do but suck down the shit shake they’ve been handed. Because of how they look. It’s not difficult for me to accept that some of the girls involved would be depressed and having self-esteem issues because of this.
Sure, one may argue that life sucks, and then you die. One may suggest that college students should know that life isn’t always fair. One can point out that if this is the greatest injustice they ever face in their lives, they should count themselves incredibly fortunate.
None of this matters, if this is the first time a given person has been handed such a personal injustice - it will shock and upset most people.
You can say you’re surprised that so many of the girls have had problems, and I’ll see nothing wrong with that opinion. (Though when the article only mentions that many have had self-esteem issues and some had problems with depression, there’s really no way to quantify just how overboard this reaction might be.) But your continued obstinance on this issue really makes me curious about your ability to empathize. We get that you don’t like the Greek life. We get that you think it’s shallow and petty. That doesn’t mean that people who like or want that for themselves can’t be hurt or damaged by actions like those of the DZ national commitee.
[QUOTE=Carol Stream]
Wow. I must really not be expressing myself clearly here. I wasn’t calling the sorority girls “mentally ill” or trying to insult anyone. That was not my intent.
I thought that what the Nationals did was sucky, but I also thought the reaction of the parents, university, and subsequent commentators was over the top, as well. And that’s what I was commenting upon.
Claiming that these girls are suffering from “self-esteem issues” and are “depressed”, over a sorority, is odd to me. I thought we got over this sort of bias 30-40 years ago. What’s next, bringing back smelling salts and fainting couches?
[/QUOTE]
Geez, I’m not one to pile on, but every time I see you on the SDMB you seem to be unable to understand a perspective that isn’t your own. For whatever reason, being part of the sorority was very important to these women, and they were ostensibly unfairly removed from the organization. They hadn’t committed a crime; just informed that their “attitudes” and “interest in recruitment” was not up to snuff. Let’s also add the fact that the women likely read between the lines and noticed the svelte, attractive White women were retained, while the bigger, less attractive (in some people’s eyes), and women of color were asked to leave.
Are these women inconsolable, and giving up on their dreams? We don’t know, and I would suspect it’s unlikely. But it is a traumatic event and I can imagine some of them are taking it very hard. OtakuLoki and others have presented numerous reasons for why this is so.
I think you’re insinuating that the fact that these women are reporting such strong emotional reactions to this event as some sort of sign of weakness among women. Men go through similar situations when a house is lost, or a chapter is disbanded. I suppose there is a fair point in saying that I doubt if a fraternity did the same exact thing that it would be reported in the same way. If that’s a point you’re trying to make, I might agree that the reporting might be very different, but I believe young men would be as likely to be traumatized, depressed, and the like if their house was broken up.
Does Delta Zeta only exist at DePauw, or are there chapters in other colleges? I wonder if there have been any repercussions in other chapters…
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99]
Does Delta Zeta only exist at DePauw, or are there chapters in other colleges?
[/QUOTE]
From the Delta Zeta website:
Delta Zeta message regarding the DePauw chapter. Looks like they’re trying to control the damage…
[QUOTE=Antonius Block]
Delta Zeta message regarding the DePauw chapter. Looks like they’re trying to control the damage…
[/QUOTE]
From the linked article:
THEY are offended? Nice. Sadly, their actions bely their words here, as the only members asked to stay were slim, attractive white women.
And I love this: “Without its diverse population, Delta Zeta could not thrive as it does on college campuses today.” Considering that this chapter was, according to them, NOT thriving despite having a diverse population, I don’t think it’s irresponsible at all to suggest that they are in violation of their own Constitution.
And they don’t explain at all why they asked the residents of this house to stay in their rooms while they brought in more slim, attractive white women to pose as residents for recruitment purposes. If they were seeking diverse pledges, one would expect them to show a representation of the diversity they allegedly desire.
If they want pretty girls in their sorority, I don’t really see the problem with it. But the injustice is that they accepted them in, then kicked them out. Why did they let them in in the first place?