Good point, some Greek orgs are diverse.
Which is itself a symptom of certain mental disorders. Funny, that.
What happened at DZs is horrible, but it has brought memories back to me that make me thankful I never joined (excuse me, was accepted).
I knew a girl in college who quit her sorority in protest because her house refused to pledge a newbie because she wasn’t “pretty enough”.
My now SIL, whom I knew in college, cried to me over the phone that she was worried she wouldn’t get into X house. She (and she is very shallow, and was blonde in college) wanted that social cachet. Ugh. Not for me.
I also know of sororoties who pumped my room-mates (indirectly) for info re family income, SES etc. Neither of them (the roomies) ended up pledging.
I knew several sorority girls in my nursing program–overwhelmingly they were nice, kind and friendly.
I dated an RA of a frat house (put there by the National Chapter Org because this house was in danger of losing its presence on campus due to over the top parties). I saw a slightly different picture. I saw some young men really trying, starting to be responsible etc. I also saw quite a few assholes.
But I am left with this: I was in and out of that house every day for 9 months. They all knew my name. I considered them my friends. When the RA broke up with me–not one of these guys would even say hi to me on campus.
While overall, I do not have a good impression of the Greek system, I have a strange push/pull for Greeks. The IDEA seems innocuous enough–even good. But the way it is manifested is just not for me. I do not feel comfortable being on “spec”. I also didn’t like the fact that even if I didn’t like a girl, suddenly she was my “sister”. I grew up with 3 sisters–I didn’t want anymore… 
I’m trying to understand how any organization can be ignorant of the aphorism that states, “If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it’s probably a duck.” Even if their reasons for dumping these girls is as legitimate as they say, something I want it clear I’m only granting for the sake of argument, they should be able to recognize that most people will be looking at their actions using the same kind of reasoning as I just outlined. Even if they’re not being racist, classist, and lookist jerks, they should be aware of the need to appear to be other than racist, classist and lookist jerks.
I also love how the article on the website states that it’s the NY Times article that’s unfortunate. Not their own actions. Not the reaction of the DePauw community. Just the NY Times.
i.e. “We could handle local fall out, 'cause those people aren’t important. But the NY Times is important. And they’re being mean to us.”
Waaaah, fucking waaah. You idiots made your bed. Sleep in it.
The athletic teams on campus are more exclusionary than the Greeks. They are the tightest cliques on campus. They also have hazing rituals and scandals of every sort. Yet the athletes get to go to school for free (except at Div. III schools), get free travel, free clothes, free (and preferential) housing and are made representatives of the school. Plus they get preferential treatment in getting into the school in the first place. There would be no need to purge the volleyball team of fat women anymore than there would be to rid the football team of little men because none would be there in the first place.
In this case the school is looking at kicking the sorority out of school. There have been far worse scandals involving the sports teams at the University I work at than this, but there sure as hell was no consideration of closing down, say, the basketball team. Instead we have spent millions of dollars trying (unsuccessfully) to prop them back up into a winner.
I’m not defending the Greeks. I’m just saying that when pointing out their imperfections don’t forget they don’t have a monopoly on these behaviors.
I do. That’s a crap attitude. Although in some ways it would be refreshing for organizatons to be blunt and up-front about their prejudices.
The National DZ organization sounds like it’s engaging in plausible deniability, to me. That’s also crap.
If you want evidence that not all sororities have the same values, look no further than the chapter featured in this story.
These too-fat, too-ethnic students were all members. They were the majority of the local chapter! It would appear that this particular chapter was more diverse and accepting than a lot of detractors are currently giving them credit for.
Now, it’s disgusting that a representative from the national chapter swept in and decided that these girls were apparently not acceptable. It doesn’t speak well for that person, and the fact that the national organization hasn’t reacted to her actions in a more appropriate way is a real black mark on them. The sorority, on a national level, may deserve the every bit of the abuse they’re getting. But I think people should back off the local chapter. Remember, they got dinged for being too accepting of fat chicks and minorities. If they’d been as bitchily conformist and clone-like as some suggest, they wouldn’t have had most of the members “alumnified” now, would they? We wouldn’t even have this story.
[stands and applauds CrankyAsAnOldMan]
Thanks for the sage reflection of what I have been arguing in this thread (and the Pit companion). They’re all quite different, chapter to chapter, campus to campus, year to year. I would be cautious to throw out a positive blanket statement about GLOs as much as I am about throwing out negative ones.
Actually, I don’t have as much of a problem with the positive blanket statements because nobody takes them seriously.
But maybe that’s a huge part of the perception problem. Another reason I didn’t rush and pledge was that I knew I was going to transfer sophomore year (long story). I did NOT want to become an XXX on my old campus where they were reasonable, intelligent fun girls, only to discover my “sisters” upon my transfer were considered the campus skanks.
Which only serves to drive home the message that this “sister” and “brother”-hood is a bunch of window dressing hogwash. If a Tri-Delt house at X uni “fits” a certain profile, yet the Tri-D at Y uni is nothing like X’s profile (not likely, but the whole peer pressure/sorority/young adult girl thing is too big for this thread)–how can Tri-Delta be said to “stand” for any one set of principles?It’s no wonder that the whole system gets a bad rap–some of it mightily deserved–if every chapter IS so different from campus to campus. At least with the chess club, you know where you are–you’re either proficient or not.
So, it makes sense to me that the negative is what people remember–from campus to campus, there is always some Greek something doing something very awful publicly. It comes with the exclusitivity–you want to be easily identified with a certain way of life, but complain when the negative aspects of that way of life are visible to all, and criticized by most. Yes, Greeks do charity work and raise money. But you can’t just take the good without the bad (I’m not really addressing this to you, Hippy). If you want the Greeks to be seen as positive attributes, then start promoting the positive attributes, not the wet T-shirt contests.
A side note:I can’t remember which thread this was in now, but whoever thought it was funny to write with permanent magic marker on some one’s passed out face is not someone I want as a friend–not now, and not when I was 19. That’s just mean-Greek or no. How about some concern re alcohol poisoning for your friend? Or would the Sharpie marks look great in the open casket? Barrel of laughs, that is.
Now this is a very good point and criticism (far better criticism than “all GLOs suck and are horrible and awful!”).
I just wanted to note that the school in question is just a little ways down 231 from me, and is our hated rival. With that in mind, I’d heard of these sorts of things happening for quite some time, but I just wrote it off to us being derogatory (that would be nothing new, as I sit here posting in my “DePauw Swallows” shirt).
I was a little shocked when I saw DePauw on both the front page of the Indianapolis Star and in the New York Times. I mean, the Times. You know you screwed up when the paper of record notes your activities.
[sub]In the interest of school spirit, the character of these folks is just about what I’d expect from Dannies. [/sub]
If by “elite” you mean “intolerable bimbos”, you are correct. The outcast students are better off not associated with that, or any, sorority.
I think that’s what ticks me off most. These women had a nice sorority going, where everyone was accepted and everyone felt included.
Then the national outfit came in and just ripped it to shreds.
And yet I laughed my ass off at the scenes in Garden State related to this practice. hangs head in shame
Ritualistic Bond would be the answer that you’re looking for; every member of the fraternity/sorority goes through the same national initiation ritual. Beyond that, who says that they have to particularly stand for any one set of ideals?
Because if they have fucking alcohol poisoning we fucking take them to the hospital. It’s barrels of laughs when somebody falls asleep in the common rooms of the house and wake up with a penis on their forehead. If somebody is having serious problems, you think we stand around and fucking laugh it up while one of our brothers is in potentially serious condition? That’s fucking stupid and to give the impression that we systematically do anything like that is painting a fucking miniature with a paint roller.
And to continue the rant a bit
this is straight up bullshit for many modern chapters. Again, the press is made by those few incidents of truly hideous behavior by people who would have been monsters with or without the Greek system. It’s just like people who don’t believe air travel is safe because every airliner crash is a major event. Our chapter could be considered to be hazing because new members are generally assigned to kitchen and house cleanup.
I’ll leave it at that for now since it’s fraternity dinner time and I have to be out there to be invited to a sorority formal… if any of you want I’d prefer to keep non-DZ-at-Depauw discussion in my thread, or here, whichever ya’ll prefer.
It’s funny to draw a penis on someone’s forehead?
when someone is passed out–you don’t know why they are passed out. Maybe you take everyone who is in that condition to the ER or student health? How do you differentiate between alcohol poisoning passed out and it’s ok to draw on our helpless brother passed out?
I am genuinely curious. I am also on a campus right now, with nary a bad behaving Greek or GDI in sight. Then again, I will be avoiding Green St with all its mayhem tomorrow night. Not because I disapprove, more because I have other plans and am a bit too old for such hijinks–whether they are Greek based or not.
So, if it’s the Ritual that Bonds the Tri-Delts together, is that all that does? Why would I be comfortable, upon transferring schools to go from one type of social group (say studious, quiet, funny and competent) to another social group with the same name, but is rowdy, reckless with a “bad” rep?
How does one fit in from chapter to chapter? The day to day stuff is ultimately much more important than any formalized ritual. I can endure/appreciate any number of symbolic ceremonies etc, but it’s how life is lived day to day that truly matters. I honestly don’t see how being an Acacia–because they do stuff you like and you like the guys in the house–is sustained if you go to another chapter where the “personality” of the house is different. I would appreciate it if you could explain that.
I have to end my participation in this discussion–we shall have to agree to disagree. While I do see your point that the negative stories get more publicity etc, I do not see Greeks as exemplary in terms of good behavior, morals or actions. Resume building is one thing-too much else goes on to warrant indulgent support and tacit approval, IMO. I will come back to read your response (if you’re not sick of the whole subject by now). Thanks
Good point. When I worked in residence life, this was a major issue for students. They often let roommates “sleep one off” because they didn’t want to get written up or a trip to the ER (and a call to Mom and Dad). If a party is going on at a GLO house, chances are there are risk management officers present to keep an eye out for problems. Doesn’t mean it’s 100 percent safe, because it isn’t. I certainly wouldn’t put my life in the hands of another student who isn’t a doctor. I don’t know what the thought process is for students to say “this kid is too far gone, let’s call an ambulance” versus “he drank too much and he’s sleeping it off.” But again, this isn’t a Greek issue, it’s a college student issue.
Let’s not be ridiculous here. Transferring to another school with another chapter is not necessarily “instant friends and fun woohoo!” It’s akin to having a cousin you don’t know on campus. Your cousin is predisposed to reach out and make you feel welcome. But maybe you’re a jerk, or you’re a little different. So you go inactive, or go active and keep a low profile, or jump in headfirst. My chapter had a guy come in from another chapter. Some liked him, some didn’t. I think people felt predisposed to give him a chance but he had a jarring personality, so he wasn’t the most popular guy in the chapter. Then again, nor was I.
This needs to be pointed out. Virtually every chapter has members who are less involved than others. Sometimes it’s because they’re busy, don’t really like people (a few or a lot) in the chapter, or have just found other pursuits to take up their time. These folks are often a breath of fresh air, or irritating sticks in the mud, or both at the same time.
It’s comparable to making a new set of friends, with some history in common. It’s expected in my fraternity to know your history book quite well. When you meet new brothers there are certain things that are said to verify that he is a member. Some guys go a lot further… the ones who don’t have a lot going on in their lives besides fraternity stuff. They can get pretty stupid about it.
Case in point: I visited some brothers in Tennessee, hung out with them, and went to a party. At the party I encountered some very old looking college guys who kept quizzing me on obscure historical stuff. I pretty much ignored them, but then they started talking a lot of smack to me. My host brothers told the guys to chill and they backed off. For some guys history stuff is like whipping it out, and they like to show off how much they know… But the point is that the host brothers were cool and I ascertained that when I first met them. If they were weird I would have probably done the generic greeting stuff and stayed away. Similarly, I imagine someone coming to a chapter would make a cursory visit, then decide for himself whether or not to hang with those guys. It’s not a requirement that you affiliate with a new chapter when you transfer to a different school.
I’d just point out as I did in this or in the other thread - GLOs have the same issues as a lot of other student organizations, and students individually have. I do think one of the posters upthread overreached in saying that the benefits of GLOs can only be found in GLOs - lots of organizations give students a chance to lead, do service, and safely manage parties, etc. Some GLOs are poorly managed and filled with miscreants and thugs and drunkards. Most GLOs probably have a smattering of these types, but also jocks, academic whizkids, political types, and just average guys/gals. As I said before, the balance can shift depending on who graduates, who enters the GLO, and so on.
sure you can. If somebody more or less falls asleep at the end of a night without throwing up or having been clearly over his or her limit, they aren’t in serious danger. Often, even if we do sharpie somebody (yeah it’s immature-funny, but hey, sharpie washes off) we’ll have people keeping an eye on them. If somebody was clearly having a bad drinking night, we’ll definately make sure that they’re alright. As it happens we almost never have to take any medical action, and we haven’t had any serious drinking accidents resulting from alcohol poisoning.
Not sure if you’re referring to me here but I never said that the specific benefits were unique to GLOs but that GLOs provide a lot of those benefits in one particular framework, basically that they’re service organizations, social organizations, leadership opportunities etc rolled in to one, not that you can ONLY get those benefits from a GLO.
I hate to come in here without much to say, but I thought the same as most of you. I came to college and thought Greek Life was the biggest joke ever. A year later, I noticed I kept hanging out with guys that were in fraternities, got along with most of them, and I rushed. I love it - and I hear stories like this one about how horrible the greek life on campus is because they are all kids who look like clones and discriminate against everyone. I must go to an odd school, because I know that our organization, and the few sororities on campus (I can’t speak for the other fraternity) don’t discriminate against people as much as the other programs at this school…
Also, I know that if you took our fraternity, or the sorority that Mrs. Small was in, you wouldn’t even see more than 2-3 dressed the same, and they are definitely not full of students just looking to party. I’m not at all defending what these people did, but I don’t think it makes sense to hear about a chapter of some sorority being racist/image concerned and instantly bash any Greek organization. Yeah, it happens. People do dumb shit. I know that if any “national officials” made that kind of judgement here, there would be problems, as in more than a few would protest. I think that instantly it would be the end of the organization for at least 2-3 on campus. It pisses me off that these people treat their organization members like that, but I don’t feel that it should be a free ticket to insult every person who is in a social organization and in college.
Brendon
Yes, you are right about that. There are a lot of perspectives expressed on this board that I don’t understand.
I think that the “I hate my parents”, “I hate my job”, and not incidentally, the “sorority girls are mean” threads are beyond pointless. I do not understand [the purpose of] them.
Also, I think that the “Animals are worth more than people”, and the “American soldiers should die in Iraq” threads are repugnant. I do not understand those, either.