I give you all I have to offer, and it's not enough.

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
21

It isn’t the wife thing that is a big issue - wife or live in girlfriend - except for the legal difference, its an attitude thing that doesn’t change with the peice of paper. Even after marriage, there is always the out of divorce - expensive, but possible.

Its the father thing thats the problem. There is no compromise on “I want or don’t want to be a parent” and its permanent.

[quote=Large Marge]

Unfortunately, this is a common problem, especially with younger women. They tend to see the potential in men, instead of just accepting them as they are. It took me 30 years to realize I was doing it, too, and that it had to stop.

[quote]

Women hope men will change after marriage but they don’t; men hope women won’t change but they do. ~Bettina Arndt, Private Lives, 1986

22

It really needs to be something you work out together. And, by together, I mean: you both have to know that there is no way, no how, that either one of you will change. In other words, if she wants kids, for certain, and you do not, for certain, no compromise is possible.

However, please, PLEASE do not make that decision “for” her, or let her go “for her own good.” Make it clear to her that you will not under any circumstances change your mind (if that is indeed the case), and if she feels the same way, it should be clear to both of you that it can’t possibly work.

However, if there is that shred of doubt, for either of you, work it out.

Getting dumped “for your own good” is one of the shittiest things imaginable. Make sure she has all the information, and let her make up her own mind.

23

Sounds like you might just think you’re doing everything for her and nothing for yourself, and are upset with it.

24

Personally, I feel that your only responsibility is to make it clear to her that you have no intention of getting married or ever having kids. If you’ve made your intentions clear, the onus is on her to take action. Still, are you going to be okay with that hope being in her heart, knowing that she wants things you can’t provide?

She’s probably just attached to you right now but probably in a few weeks/months if she has any self-esteem she’ll start looking around for someone that “fits the bill” + has the same goals and will probably leave you herself. I don’t say this to be mean or snarky at all-I’ve heard this line and personally, I bail the day after someone tells me they NEVER want to get married. But the first few times you hear it and you’re in a situation where you’re fond of the person, you do shuffle your feet on the inevitable because it hurts.

So I don’t know man, personally I think she’s going to get more and more miserable and either you’ll dump her for being a drag or she’ll dump you once she figures out that there are plenty of men to marry. I know that’s horribly cynical of me to say but I have a lot of dating experience and that’s usually the way it pans out.

And I will say this-I appreciate it more when people tell me right away, within a couple of months, that they never want to get married. It bugs more when it’s like close to your 1 year anniversary or something. I make it very clear to most guys I date that I’m not the baby factory type and have no intentions of reproducing for the next 10 years. No point giving false hopes since I’m of that “everyone’s getting married” age and from a culture where most kids my age are looking for a life partner.

25

It is my belief that you can deny a person a lot of things, but children ain’t one of them.

I, like you, never wanted to get married, and never wanted to have kids. Well it turns out that after 17 years of “dating” I got married to my now husband, but we still won’t be having kids. The only reason we got married was due to him being activated for the 2nd Bush family war. We got married when he came back because it seemed silly not to.

I think if all you wanted to do was remain single it wouldn’t be a problem, but procreation is something that I don’t think you can deny her. I think she’ll resent you for it some day.

26

Cool. A chance to play Cary Tennis. Here is what I think.

The two of you should agree on a period of time for soul searching. Say, a month. During that month, you will honestly consider whether or not you are willing to get married to this woman and have children with her. I know you don’t want to now. But give yourself a month to think about the issue in a concrete fashion – not just “I don’t want kids or to get married,” but “is this person worth sacrificing some of my desires for?”

At the same time, she must spend the same month searching her own soul, honestly considering whether or not she’s willing to stay with you if she has no hope of getting a marriage or children out of the deal. Are you worth sacrificing some of her desires for?

During that month, do not talk to each other about what you’re thinking re: marriage and kids. Enjoy each other. And spend some time reflecting. Seriously. Each of you must be open to the possibility that you might change your mind if this is going to be worth your time.

At the end of your chosen month, go out to dinner somewhere you can have a long conversation. And talk honestly, as you have done, about your feelings. Have you changed your mind? Has she?

If neither of you has changed your mind, discuss what that means for your relationship. Do you end it now? Are you both happy going out for X more months together? Do you date while she also keeps her eyes open for someone else? You know each other better than any of us do, so only you know what the answers to these questions can be.

If, however, she wants to stay together and continue to hope that you’ll change your mind someday, I recommend that you end the relationship. Not for her sake, although she’ll probably also benefit in the long term. End it because you will be miserable in a relationship like that, knowing that you’re not going to change her mind, telling her you won’t change her mind, her hearing you but not really understanding you.

One more thing:

This sounds like a load of self-pitying horseshit, honestly. Of course it matters what you want, or you’d get married and have kids. Be good to yourself, and be good to her, as best you can.

27

I think that it is vital that both partners make it abundantly clear what they can compromise on in a relationship and what is a non-negotiable.

In our case, it was not the marriage or having kids, but the Japanese expectation that the eldest son and his wife live with his parents.

All the way along, I had said that I wouldn’t ever live with his parents, and he seemed to accept this except sometimes he’d agree with me then throw in a little comment like “Well, we can have our own house for the first few years” or “When they get older we’ll think again” or “You’ll change your mind, probably.”

Finally, on the day we went to the city office to register our marriage (I left it tooooo late!!), I asked him to stop the car, turned to face him and said “You do understand I’m not going to live with your parents, don’t you?” He said “Yes, not now but maybe one day”, and I stared him in the face and said “No, NEVER. If you can’t accept theat the let’s not drive any further.”

He looked at me for a long moment, then started the engine, we went to the city office and we signed the papers.

I really WAS prepared to not go through with it, and he has never resented me for it (his parents do of course but now his sister and her family live with them, and everyone is satisfied with that arrangment so it’s more the principle of keeping up the grumble now!)

So if never marrying and never having kids is indeed your non-negotiable, STICK WITH IT. You will be miserable later on if you don’t, and by extension other people will be too.

Good luck.

28

As a side note I’m astonished it took this subject 7 months to come up.

It’s a difficult question because some people do change their minds about marriage and kids if they find the right person (or think they have) so her optimism is not entirely unfounded.

Young men often do not have a concrete notion about kids or marriage. The concept sort of floats out there in a far off future limbo somewhere. Young women and their desires are the ones who crystallize this for them. In modernity men generally don’t want to have kids as an end in itself, they want (or otherwise decide) to have kids in order to keep the woman happy and the relationship intact.

if you are sure you dont want to have kids you need to move on. Otherwise you’re just stringing her along which is wrong, even if she loves you enough that she is willing to be strung.

29

Sorry to hear that you are in the midst of such a sad situation.
I see from your profile that you’re 27. At your age, I think a breakup would probably be for the best. You are old enough to presumably be pretty confident about what direction you want your life to go in. Plus, for her, these are the prime childbearing years. It would be pretty sad if she spent years hoping that you’d change your mind, to the extent that it ended up leading to her remaining childless. The pain of a breakup fades with time, but for someone who truly wants kids and can’t have them, the emptiness and longing would probably just get worse with time.

I think you both can, and should, find other people who share your beliefs about marriage/children. Even if you couldn’t find a like-minded mate, though, I think it is far better to be peacefully alone than to be stuck in an unhappy relationship where there is tension about such fundamental issues as marriage and children.

30

That’s really too bad, Lord Ashtar, but if you’re not compatible on the deal-breakers (and those are two big ones there), you’re simply not compatible. Say, why don’t you send your girlfriend on in here, and we’ll educate her about how men don’t change (and why should they?), and how she should find someone who actually is compatible for her, not someone she thinks she can fix?

31

Thanks for the responses, all of you. You’ve given me a lot to think about.

32

You say you love her, but you’ll never make her happy. Then do the right thing and break up with her.

Personally, I have less problem with the “I dont’ want to get married” attitude than the “If things go sour, I should be able to bail without all that pesky paperwork” attitude. That would work great if people were completely devoid of emotions. But they are not. Whether you walk down the aisle or not, any long term relationship is going to be painful and unpleasant and you won’t be able to avoid it. The only thing you’re really protecting is your money. Your heart will always be at jeopardy.

Of course, the kid thing is a definite deal breaker anyway. Shame on her for thinking that she can talk you out of it. Of the two couples that I know where one party was “talked into” changing their mind, both ended up in divorce.

Honestly, you both have completely different goals. How do you ever hope to arrive at some harmonious place together?

33

Exactly. Life is really strange, and takes turns one never could have imagined. And this is precisely what makes situations like this so difficult: to my mind, no matter how certain you are about a given issue now (I’m certain I don’t want kids, for example) your perspective could be completely different in another five or ten years. I’m 27 now, and I can’t imagine having kids for the usual reasons: not-so-great childhood, don’t feel much of a maternal instinct (and never have), too much moral responsibility, the world is messed up, I don’t want the constrictions, etc. But despite my absolute certainty now, I might feel differently in ten years. Who knows? When I was fifteen, I imagined my 25 year old self being in grad school (with my vague notions of what that meant), having an apartment, that sort of thing, but I had no idea whatsoever of the kind of person I am now. Who’s to say I won’t be as different when I’m 35?

I don’t mean to deny that there are people out there who get in a relationship with the expectation that the other will change in some way (I’m all too guilty of that myself, and it sucks): I would think the only way your gf could continue is to really let go of her expectations - that whether you end up steadfastly maintaining the same position you do now, or change, she will be okay either way. And that (major understatement) is no easy task.

On the positive side, you’re both talking and thinking about it, and no matter which decision you end up taking, is right.

34

Thank you that’s exactly what I was thinking. Get off the pity pot and take some responsibility for yourself. In the meantime you can stop taking responsibility for her. “set her free” is just misogynistic crap. Who the hell are you to set anyone free besides yourself?

I know that sounds harsh but to me it looks like your attitude about this is all screwed up. I think you need to take a long hard look inside yourself and make sure that your resolve to remain childless and single is based on something other than fear. And if your reasons are fear based then you need to decide whether or not you want to live your life from that perspective.

Good luck.

35

I kinda was, too.

This is very good advice. There’s nothing wrong with not wanting marriage and kids, and maybe you don’t want them simply because you just don’t. Like most things in life, whatever choice you decide on for yourself is valid; just make sure you’ve actually thought about it and decided what’s right for you.

36

I agree with all this: if you “set her free,” you’re in some sense telling her that she’s not a big enough girl to make up her own mind, and that you know what’s better for her than she knows for herself. That’s a pretty patronizing and condescending thing to do.

If the relationship isn’t working out for you, then vamoose. If the relationship isn’t working out for her, then let her vamoose. But don’t think that you get to make the decision for both of you: you only get to decide for yourself whether it’s working out.

Daniel

37

“Set her free” isn’t the way I would have gone with this, either. However, if he would feel uncomfortable in staying with his girlfriend in this situation, suspecting that she’s holding out hope he’ll change, that is a valid point for him to consider. I’m leaning towards the “both spend a month considering their feelings but not discussing it until the end of the month” solution.

38

I must agree with the diagnosis of Interrobang!? and others. The self-pity crap sucks, as does the “set her free for her own good” bullshit. She’s an adult and deserves to make her own decisions regarding her life, as do you. Neither of you get to make decisions for the other person.

39

“Set her free” may be a poor choice of words, implying Lord Ashtar has all the control and the girlfriend none, but in this case it’s appropriate. He loves her, but he can’t give her the things she wants, marriage and children. He wants to “set her free” to find someone who can give her what she wants. Personally, I think you’d be doing her a big favor by breaking up with her now. I was in my mid-20s once, girls have stars in their eyes and think “Oh, but I’ll be different from all his other women! I’ll be the one to change him!”

You both need the opportunity to find someone to make you happy. You’re not it for her, and she’s not it for you. You’ve been up front with her, but believe me, she’ll stay with you, thinking “one day” you’ll “change your mind.” A little pain now will save a ton of pain later, and if you do truly care for her, don’t you want to make this a painless as possible?

40

Poor choice of words or misogynistic, either way, Lord Ashtar, *don’t * use the phrase to her: When I eventually got my stupid ex on the phone after he broke up with me, he kept saying calmly, condescendingly, “You’re free. I’ve set you free.” I screamed at him: “FUCK YOU! I DIDN’T WANT TO BE ‘SET FREE’!”

No, we’re not the same people, but if she has any self-respect, she won’t take hearing those particular words very well, and you’ll probably end up sprayed in venom, rather than the probable peace you’re hoping for.