This is what I am having trouble with. I understand your feeling this way. I do too, actually, but I don’t like that I feel this way.
As long as there is this shame attached to having an abortion, we are at risk of losing this right. I believe this with all my heart.
I believe that most women who have chosen abortion knew it was the right thing for them at the time. Some may have agonized over the decision, some may have know immediately, but regardless of how they came to their decision, they knew it was right for them.
Why not let the world know it then. We certainly respect the idea of freedom of speech. Right? Why is the idea of this shirt bothering so many people? Why does it bother so many people who believe that a woman is entitled to choice?
I think it’s like many other things, yes you can do that, I have no problem with it, just don’t tell me about it. Don’t bring it out to be looked at under the light of day. Keep it out of my sight so I can ignore it if I want. I can pay lip service but at the same time, not examine to deeply, because it’s uncomfortable. I can believe that my sister or my mother or my best friend never had to make a decision like this.
But the fact remains that if milroyj really thought that the whole statement was so horrific, he could at least have had the honesty and integrity to quote the whole thing.
I wasn’t objecting to the fact that he held a different opinion. I was objecting to the fact that he deliberately and maliciously distorted the substance of sperfur’s position by selective quotation. There’s an important distinction between saying:
and
As i said before, you have the right to disagree with the second quotation, but if you do then at least have the moral fibre to quote it and argue against it in its entirety, rather than deliberately and outrageously selecting a single clause.
But, as i suggested before, this sort of dishonesty is milroyj’s standard “debating” technique.
Because, like many things in the United States these days, things which should be private are being shouted from the rooftops just because they can be.
What gets advanced by wearing the t-shirt in your daily life? Wearing it to a pro-choice rally makes sense. But what gets accomplished by wearing it to the mall or the grocery store? You’re certainly not going to convince any pro-lifers. They’re not going to “see the light” and admit that a woman’s right to choose should have priority over the (perceived) baby’s life.
It’s like a gay guy wearing a shirt to the mall that says “I sucked my boyfriend’s cock last night” or a lesbian wearing a shirt that says “I ate out my girlfriend’s pussy last night.” What good is that going to do? It’s not going to convince any homophobes that the love between two men or two women is just as valid as the love between a man and a woman. I’m not suggesting that they should remain in the closet. I’m just saying that the shirt isn’t helping the cause any.
The same thing with the abortion t-shirt. It’s more likely that a pro-life fanatic will try to kick your ass for wearing it than it is that you will change anyone’s mind.
It’s the anti-abortion crowd that wants to make it everyone’s business but the woman who is seeking/having the abortion! They’ve kept the issue in the headlines, at the rallies, and at the political forefront for thirty-odd years! The only reason anyone feels the need to wear the shirt is to defend the right to continue to have access to a safe abortion.
Well, if we branded every woman who had an abortion with a scarlett A, we’d discover that women who have abortions come from all walks of life. They are Christian and agnositc. Republican and Democrat. Black and White. Fifteen and Fifty. Pro-choice and even pro-life. And it might sink in that this may not be a choice we are completely comfortable with or agree with, but its a choice made by many of our co-workers, neighbors, friends and sisters.
But the t-shirt doesn’t accomplish that. It convinces us that the woman who have abortions are radical feminist lesbians (don’t ask me how they got pregnant). White women of a certain age who could probably afford to have a child, who’s child would almost certainly be wanted by another white couple. Because that is who is likely to wear this shirt at a prochoice rally (or anywhere else).
You might be right that it’s not going to change anyone’s mind. In fact, i’m certain that you’re right.
But perhaps the people who wear t-shirts like this are simply looking to show other people the same level of discomfort that they themselves have had to suffer for having an abortion, or for being gay. For example, plenty of women who use abortion clinics have to run a gauntlet of protestors calling them a murderer. While i know that trying to get back at such people by wearing a t-shirt is a little pointless, i can’t really condemn the sentiment.
And if some pro-life fanatic does try to get violent, then that person will (or at least should) be arrested and charged accordingly.
While i didn’t really agree with Coldfire’s assessment that anyone who wears a political t-shirt is a moron, at least he is consistent in his position, and is not applying it selectively to only some political positions, unlike some people in this thread.
And I’m not sure this is a bad thing. In fact, it probably is a good thing. It starts conversations and gets ideas going, right?
I don’t know that I could wear the tee-shirt even to a rally and certainly not to a grocery store. But I do believe wearing it would raise awareness about the fact that the people who have made this choice are all around us. And I don’t believe the purpose is to change someone’s mind, but rather to remove the shame often associated with abortion. And to start the conversation.
IMO, you are making what is a common mistake in modern America, which is to tie together the ideas of privacy and shame. Many people assume, as it seems to me you are doing, that any attempt to keep certain subjects private must mean that you are ashamed of them. People are encouraged to be more “open,” to “loosen up;” if they refuse to discuss certain matters, they are “uptight” or “ashamed.”
I don’t make that connection, and the refusal to make it is intentional. IMO, certain subjects should be mostly private, and that include the details of sexual relations, health problems, elimination of human waste, and surgical procedures. To me, “I HAD AN ABORTION” is just TMI, the equivalent of “I STARTED MY PERIOD TODAY”. I don’t talk about my sex life or my reproductive choices with anyone but my very closest friends, and I sure as hell don’t talk about them on a T-shirt. That doesn’t mean I’m ashamed of them; it means I don’t think they’re any of your business and it means that I recognize that talking about them might make you, or me, or both of us, uncomfortable, because it’s oversharing.
IMO it’s a dangerous thing to link privacy concerns to shame, or to assume that a person only keeps things private because he or she has something to hide, or feels ashamed. Accusations of shame are a handy and effective way to undermine an individual’s right to privacy: “What do you mean, you won’t tell me if you’re gay? What, are you ashamed of it?”
That’s the jump it seems to me you’re making, by tying your own discomfort about the shirt to a feeling of “shame” about the procedure. I don’t think it’s necessary to tie the two together that way, though (of course) maybe they are tied together that way for you and you’re trying to get past that. But they’re not tied together that way for me, and I’d just point out they don’t have to be.
I don’t object to the shirt because I think it’s wrongly airing out a shameful subject; I object to the shirt because it’s airing out what IMO should be a private matter. Basically, I think it’s tacky. Way tacky. Which is not to say that people don’t have the right to wear it; free speech and all that. But since you’re asking what bothers me about it – the overshare bothers me.
Yep, that’s exactly what it is, for all but my closest friends. Sex, regularity, reproductive surgeries (heck, most surgeries), personal grooming of the intimate variety – my response is: “Yes, you can do that, I have no problem with it, just don’t tell me about it. Keep it out of my sight so I can ignore it if I want.” Again, there’s nothing inherently wrong with such sentiments – so long as you don’t automatically assume the person holding them does so to cause you shame, as opposed to holding them out of a sense of propriety and privacy.
I understand women who share their private stories of abortion in order to personalize the cause. I think that’s appropriate under certain circumstances – when you’re at a rally, not when you’re standing in a line at the bank. But IMO, and it’s only IMO, to reduce the whole thing to a startling, TMI T-shirt is tacky.
I understand the separation of shame and privacy. But as long as the opposition is chanting that abortion is wrong, associating shame with something that is legal is a very real possibility.
We both agree that a person has the right to wear the shirt. I also agree that the idea of wearing the tee-shirt to a grocery store is tacky.
I know I wouldn’t wear the abortion shirt to a grocery store. I also wouldn’t wear an “I was raped” shirt to a grocery store. Mostly because it is none of anyones business, but there is something more to it than that.
A woman’s right to bring charges against her attacker is not in jeopardy. Her reproductive rights are. For now abortion is legal. Could any of us not imagine this might change in the future? The tee-shirt is not the answer, but maybe, just maybe, some in your face oversharing will make a difference. If I am uncomfortable with it, that is a small price to pay for the safeguarding of my rights.
Jane, wouldn’t it strike you as odd if you walked by a woman wearing a “I put my baby up for adoption.” t-shirt? Not because it’s shameful, but because it’s undignified to share that level of personal information with strangers.
Sure, but I don’t think you have to buy into that. IMO, I don’t think the answer to the abstract “This is a shameful act” is “Well, I’m not ashamed of it,” but rather “We’re not going to talk about this in the context of shame at all.” If I argue rights of women in the theoretical and universal and keep my personal experience to myself, they never have the opportunity to shame me for anything, because they don’t know what I have or haven’t done. For the same reason, they also do not have the ability to attack the legitimacy of my position (“You don’t know the emotional impact of abortion, you’ve never had one”) by arguing that only those personally touched by the issue have the ability to discuss it. For all they know, I’ve had several abortions. Or none. Why should I assist them in legitimizing the invasion of women’s privacy as a proper context for this (or any) debate?
Except wearing a T-shirt does nothing to safeguard your rights. And IME in-your-face uninvited oversharing makes a difference only insofar as it annoys/offends people and potentially drives them away from your cause, because nobody likes to be annoyed/offended. YMMV, of course.
But I do think we largely agree. I can see that some people might think this an appropriate statement of support, at certain places and times, especially as a show of solidarity and a repudiation of shame at a pro-choice rally or event. I just wouldn’t wear it myself, and frankly my response at seeing the first woman wearing it would be: :eek: Second one: :dubious: Third one:
Not really relevant, but for some reason this discussion reminds me of the time I was caught shamelessly flaunting aspects of my sex life in front of a little child…
I and my husband were out walking in broad daylight, brazenly pushing our baby in a (argh-what’s-the-name-of-those-things-with-wheels-for-transporting-babies-in?). As we passed a kindergarten, a girl four years old or so ran to the fence, stared at us, and shouted in a loud, clear, triumphant voice:
“I know something! I know something you’ve done! You’ve been smoooooching! In beeeed!”
(The translation doesn’t really do justice to her “Æ veit nokka dokke ha gjort! Dokke ha kliiiina! I sææænga!” but I assume few here are fluent in trøndersk.)
I’m still reading this one but again quotes like this *“There’s a shame that covers the whole issue because it’s not allowed to be spoken about. So many women pick up this cloak of shame without thinking about it.” * I think cut to the heart of why women feel the need to wear the shirt. I get that.
The shame attached to abortion seems to be a pretty common theme here.
love non-English as a first langague speaker. Have no problem with transport, flaunting, brazen and relevant- words not really commonly used in most people’s vocabulary…can’t come up with stroller. Its so odd how brains work.
(however, my other language is … ok, I don’t have one.)
The difference, JANE, is that rather than “casting off the cloak of shame” I refuse to admit that shame has any relevance to the discussion. I refuse to admit that anyone exercising their right to choose has done anything they should feel ashamed of. Again, your linked articles quite clearly corrollate “admitting something highly personal” with “not being ashamed of it,” leaving open the presumed inverse – if you don’t admit it, you are ashamed of it. There are a lot of things I do and am that I don’t talk about in public, much less wear on a T-shirt; that doesn’t mean I’m ashamed of any of them. The more I think about it, the more I don’t like these shirts precisely because they buy into the premise that in order to be invested in the debate and/or in order to prove your “cred” on the issue, it is necessary to tacitly accept the corrollation of privacy and shame, and further necessary to give up your privacy in order to prove your lack of shame.
