I’m just wondering if our friend the raindog is somehow missing the concept of hyperbole.
Because if he’s not, he’s being awfully obtuse.
Robin
My apologies. I had missed the evolution of the 6:00 a.m. timepoint.
So, after all, you are calling Miller a liar? Given that I think JW’s are nuts to begin with, I’ll assume that a few of them are going to stray from the protocol. For instance, I’ve been told that it isn’t typically the case that they would corner someone on the trolley, yet one did so to me, sitting in the aisle seat so that I did not have direct egress to avoid him.
So I could expect to be free from harrassment during these times? Great, I’ll make sure I answer the door routinely at those times. Otherwise, there’s nothing there ruling out a 6:00 a.m. visit. Perhaps someone was on their way t’ meetin’, and thought they’d spread some glory before getting in there.
I’m not calling Miller a liar. I’m saying he got it wrong. How he got it wrong I can’t say for sure.
Nuts or not, They’re not going to knock on anyone’s door at 6:00 a.m.
I don’t know who told you that the trolley is a JW Free Zone, but it’s actually common—street corners in urban areas, public transportation, subways…
Well…
I am quite familiar with hyperbole, although I have been guilty of being obtuse at some point…
Please expand your thoughts as to how hyperbole plays out in this thread…
Because I thought it was quite obvious that “6:00 a.m.” wasn’t to be taken literally, but rather as an expression meaning “pretty damn early”.
Robin
This is true at the core…
However it has application to any free speech that endeavors to meet people where they live. The same ruling protects the canvasser from the Green Party who is signing petitions for a third party candidate, or the PTA who’s trying to educate the neighborhood about a school levy.
And it does speak to property rights as it relates to freedom of speech and the freedom of religion. You are correct— no one has to allow a canvasser of any flavor on their property. But the cases establishes that the government cannot make this prohibition—only the property owner can.
I don’t like the idea of anyone feeling that their way is better than mine and that they’re going to knock on my door to prove it to me.
I’ve been told that the door to door stuff is a fullfillment of one of the requirements of their religion - not necessarily genuine concern for my soul.
I now just ask them for their home addresses so that I can come discuss religion at times that are convenient to me. So far, no takers
How long have these rules been in place? Because I remember my grandmother going out to bother folks around 8:00 am*. And I remember her partners in annoyance showing up at my place early as well–until they found out who my granma was; then they’d leave me alone til they had a chance to verify with her that I wasn’t a member of the cult and should be bothered again.
I haven’t had a JW visitation for years–we don’t have a Kingdom Hall in my small town and the one in the larger city is mostly filled with Hispanics who probably aren’t very comfortable cold calling on folks; who knows what kind of misunderstandings could arise.
However, I frequently get LDS Elders–we’re only a couple of blocks from the local LDS church and it seems like they try the newbies out on our street. I always politely tell them I already have my own beliefs that I’m happy with and they go on their way to annoying the next person.
I’m going to put up a sign because the doorbell makes the dogs go crazy and who needs that when you’re just going to be opening the door to someone you aren’t interested in seeing.
*Maybe it had to do with area we lived in and the shifts people worked.
Maybe if a disinterested party steps in…
I believe the raindog when he says he is not calling Miller a liar, because a liar is someone who intentionally tells an untruth. I think the raindog has now gone out of his way to point out that he did not accuse Miller of *intentional[i/] misrepresentation, because he has no way of knowing Miller’s intentions.
Honestly, I’ve got no dog in this fight - I’m nor partial to either poster, nor have I anything against either. But Miller, you are choosing to take offense out of proportion to the situation. It might be possible that you believe it was 6:00am, but it could also be possible that you were mistaken, couldn’t it? Your honor doesn’t have to be at stake over it, right?
I’ve experience many, many JW’s and LDS’s coming to my various doors (and my parents’ doors) in various parts of the country in my lifetime, and I can’t for the life of me think of a single time they were there before 10:00am.
I could think up as many bizarre scenarios to explain why someone might be at someone else’s door at 6:00am claiming to be religious proselityzers as someone else can think of reasons why a JW would violate their standard operating procedure. But I won’t bother.
I’m no fan of JW’s or LDS’s beliefs, but the raindog makes an excellent point about the court battles the JW’s have stood in for us all, and I appreciate the freedom of religious practice we have in the U.S. I try to treat them with respect as a result. I don’t feel the need to get “offended” by them trying to convert me; what’s the point? Sure, sometimes they show up at inconvenient times, or whatever - it’s not personal, though. Getting all in a froth over them makes it sound like one has “issues.”
Why does this bother you so much? Do you realize that, right now, there are a great many people who feel that their “way” is better than yours, or that they know more than you. So what?
As has been said before, if you don’t like people knocking on your door, get a sign. If they knock anyway, point to the sign and shut the door.
You can’t possible know the motivations of each & every proselytizer, and neither can the person who told you that. I’ll bet at least some of them have genuine concern for your soul.
Now, that is a great idea. If they want to tell you about their beliefs so badly, they should be willing to do so. If not, they should certainly not expect you do listen to them.
I used to have a pastor who, when the JW’s or LDS’s came to his home, would say, “here’s my business card - come see me during my office hours, and I’ll be happy to talk to you. I don’t talk business on my days off.” (Not that he wouldn’t talk about his beliefs to someone who was genuinely seeking, but he just wasn’t willing to be “preached to” by them on his day off.)
Sure, it’s possible. If raindog had said I was mistaken, I wouldn’t have minded at all. Wouldn’t be the first time. The thing is, that’s not what he said. “Anything for a good story,” isn’t allowing room for error on my behalf. That’s a straight up, direct accusation of making shit up, and that’s what pisses me off. All the backpeddling since then hasn’t helped much, either. If someone’s going to insult me, at least they can own up to the insult, instead of pretending that it’s something else.
With Woad all over your face? :D(Where’s my william wallace smiley?)
Well, I considered it assholish behavior. If it’s JW standard behavior, I’d say the shoe fits.
Well this post does, in fact, compel me to apologize.
Let me explain…
I have some dog in this fight, but I’m more ambivalent than anything else, frankly. You see, I am a veteran lurker on these type threads, and they are in fact semi-common.
The thing that bunched up my panties is that invariably the threads have in common the following accounts: (stated as fact, or not clearly (to me anyway) as parody or hyperbole)
- Some proseltyzer, usually JWs, showing up at 6, 7 or 8 in the morning.
- Persistence so brazen that the experience is described akin to a home invasion.
- Invariably, some genius takes them to the intellectual woodshed (always for several hours) at which point the JWs are shellshocked, dazed, confused, bewildered and demoralized as they leave the home.
- Always, always a link to a sophmoric, witless, banal post that desribes an experience—stated as fact—that without a doubt did not happen. (or at the very least, didn’t happen in any way as written) Invariably this link will be followed with wistful comments like “I miss that guy”, “That rocks, dude!” or, “Brilliant, F*cking brilliant.”
- Almost without exception the proseltyzers are described as so docile and slackjawed so as to accept, without question, complaint or remedy at law, almost any level of malicious behavior.
- Every single thread, every one, isn’t complete with a bunch of juvenile suggestions that include human sacrifice, offers for swingers sex, beastiality, references to satan and satanism, various forms of nudity, witless comebacks and sundry other abuse.
- Without exception, they are desribes as witless, simple minded, clueless about their own faith (including it’s history) and especially about the bible. (All accusations from a group that, on average, couldn’t find Genesis with a bookmark and clues)
- Invariably someone will propose, with sincerity, a remedy to this religious scourge that isn’t just unconstitutional, but entirely repressive. I’m no fan of the garden variety conservative, but the irony that denizens of this board would so blithely suggest things that would be found only in places like Soviet era USSR, or Iran, can’t be missed by anyone with a pulse.
Don’t believe me? Do a search.
But it was this [cumulative] observations and backdrop that had me address your comment about them being there at 6:00 a.m. It seems a little unfair that I would pick on you over the cumulative hyperbole committed by many others. So, I do sincerely apologize.
It so happens that I know a few JWs, and I know how they operate. I hate to crash the party and urinate in the Wheaties, but here a few facts about JWs:
- In the US, they would not be at your door before 9:15 a.m.; and more likely at 9:45 a.m. at the earliest.
- They keep pretty good records, and endeavor to respect those who don’t want them there, and daysleepers.
- I have never—and I mean never—seen someone educate them for hours at which point they are confused and bewlidered. One of these threads had a woman claim that she schooled 'em (with the same shellshocked result) when she was all of 10 years old. If for no other reason, they would not be interested in a 4 hour debate, because that is not their purpose. Earlier, someone said something about “low hanging fruit.” There’s nothing sinister about that in the slightest. They are there to reach people who are interested or receptive to their message. They have no interest in winning arguments or arm wrestling over who can find the book of “Amos” faster.
- JWs endeavor to demonstrate mildness, and it is apparent that most posters believe that. It’s clear that the some see this as a weakness, and a license to abuse them. But while they will not “return evil for evil” or return an insult, they would not accept abuse, as though masochists. (which, believe it or not, has been suggested) If only a portion of the fiction that is posted as fact actually happened, at least some of those JWs would have defended themselves, or returned with the police. Master Wang-Ka would have been in handcuffs before the morning was out.
- Among the religions I am familar with, the JWs are among the most knowledgeable believers when it comes to the bible. You may not agree with their doctrines, but even their critics acknowledge that they know the bible, and can cogently explain their beliefs using the bible. (of almost any translation) An average JW will know more about the bible than the overwhelming amount of the people that they will encounter in any given day knocking on doors. In fact, the overwhelming amount of people in the general population never read their bible. (Of course there are exceptions, and there are people of many faiths who are quite knowedgable) JWs spend, on average, 5-8 hours every single week, for years, actively using their bible. The notion that are witless bots may be fun to post here, but it is hardly accurate.
- Many of the freedoms we all enjoy have been battle tested all the way to the US Supreme Court, and codified in Law by the efforts of people like JWs. It’s not just a willingness to litigate—virtually every one of these cases were born of arrests, beatings, ridicule and abuse. Would you find it offensive that you would be required—under penalty of arrest and prosecution— to salute the flag, or recite the pledge of allegiance, including your kids? (Your right to respectfully decline is due to a SCOTUS brought by JW children who were abused unmercifully because they dared to respectfully decline to salute the flag.) I believe the JWs have brought over 20 cases to the SCOTUS to defend rights we all take for granted.
But maybe MsRobyn is right and I’m sufficiently nuance challenged to not see clear hyperbole.
I am pointing out, however, that on a board that prides itself on accuracy, intelligence, and diversity, this ‘hyperbole’ manifests itself in inaccuracies, bigotry, prejudice and intolerance; the very same things that are fought *relentlessly *when they come from a different point on the political, religious or social spectrum.
It’s not the knock at the door that bothers me. It’s the audacity of them to think I want them to sell me their fantasy! That I’m so intellectually bankrupt that I’m incapable of seeking religion on my own. That their doorstep propaganda has a positive effect on my opinion of their fantasy. Or that they actually think that any god that might exist would want (or need) them to recruit (as if he couldn’t do that on his own).
The stupidity is mind-boggling. If any religion’s god requires a Fuller God Salesman, it hardly seems worthy of worship, does it? It rather lacks the punch and power of a way of life dictated by an almighty being.
Geez, Kalhoun, why the rage?
Do you get as upset that Coca Cola or MacDonald’s have the nerve, the audacity to think that you’re too stupid to make your own food choices, and feel they have to bombard you with advertising?
I admit to getting frequently ticked off or annoyed with advertising, myself, but not because I think that the companies feel I’m too stupid to function without them.
At best, proselytizing is earnest believers trying to spread the Word and ler others know about what they perceive as the Good Stuff. Some of them believe they gety some reward for this, but some are genuinely altruistic. I have no problems with these people, especially if they’re not pushy.
Of course, there are the obnoxious ones and arrogant. You get a mixed bag in any kind of human activity. And there are the ones out for “fresh meat” so they can get a bigger income and/or political influence. I join you in disliking those. But I think they’re a very small minority of the missionaries out there.
Well put Kalhoun. In a ten block radius around my apartment, there are 12 different churches. None of them has ever approached me, but the LDS and JayDub’s do hit me on the main street of my City. Do I think I’m totally ignorant and don’t know how to find religion if I ever want it (don’t hold your breath, folks)?
[QUOTE=CalMeacham]
Do you get as upset that Coca Cola or MacDonald’s have the nerve, the audacity to think that you’re too stupid to make your own food choices, and feel they have to bombard you with advertising?
[QUOTE]
MickyD’s and Coke have never knocked at my door unannounced.
Speaking as a former LDS missionary, let me say here that knocking on doors (we call it tracting) is just about the least productive and least favorite of missionary activities.
It is not pleasant to knock on door after door, only to have them slammed in your face and have insults hurled at you. As others have posted here, a simple “No, thanks, I’m not interested” is a perfectly valid response and will be respected by the missionaries.
There are a lot of ways that missionaries find people to teach. Some of the most productive are from church members who have friends that have expressed interest, or from people who have responded to TV ads, etc.
Usually they only will resort to tracting when an appointment falls through or they have no other immediate prospects to call on. Occasionally, by knocking on doors they will find someone who is willing to listen, and many very good people have been found in that way. But more often than not it is discouraging work.
Again, as others have stated, we’re not trying to shove anything down your throat. If you don’t want to listen to us, we don’t want to waste your time or ours. But the reason we do this at all is that the gospel brings us joy and happiness and we want to share it.
Well, just in time for this thread, I did have a fairly innocuous encounter with JWs just this morning. I was busy working on my eBay and making some calls on my hubby’s behalf when there was a knock at the door. I opened the door to find a well-dressed, middle-aged woman right at my door, and a man in a suit, holding a clipboard, standing right at the bottom of my steps. The woman said “We’ve come to share some good news!” and I said “Are you Jehovah’s Witnesses?” She said they were, and I told her I was a practicing Baha’i and quite happy with my religion. She replied that they find that most people already have a religion they are happy with, but there’s joyous news to share! I told her I’d been visited by JWs before, had already had the joyous news shared with me, explained that I work from home and wished to get back to work. She said “Oh, yes, I wondered when I noticed the phone in your hand. Well, have a nice day!” And they left, with no more argument than that! I really try hard to be pleasant unless they force me to be otherwise.